New stove decisions, thoughts, ideas, comments wanted

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Cat stove are not necessarily more energy efficient. They do however burn much longer than a secondary burn stove. Their heating curve is a lot flatter so it keeps radiating heat at a lower level for a long time. The downside of Cat stove is they are huge in order to provide the long burn time and in my estimation they are sinfully bugly!

I agree with most of your points except the 2 above. The only and I mean the only useful piece of information on the EPA label is the g/hr. That's all EPA is concerned about. The BTU's & efficiencies are bogus on the label. Yet they insist we put them there.

So here is the explanation... Remember we are testing for EPA smoke emissions, not efficiencies or BTU's. When the tests are conducted the protocol calls to burn BC fir (softwood) in small QTY and cribbed. So of course if you dont put wood in the stoves your BTU ratings will be low! Since nobody burns like that most MFG conduct their own BTU tests using mixed cordwood.

All EPA labels rate every single stove MFG'd since the 80% at 63% efficiency. That's actually not tested. What EPA is saying in effect is "If this stove is EPA rated, you should expect a minimum of 63% efficiency". It's a benchmark, untested value and is meaningless. However, since EPA is a gobermint agency they force the MFG to put that figure there no matter how meaningless. With the new EPA legislation this label will hopefully be changed to reflect better info.

There are more moving parts in a Cat stove there will ever be in a non-cat. The only time you would ever need to replace the burn tubes is if you had a major overfire which made them sag. Of course by then, other stuff has warped and cracked. The ceramic blanket on top of the baffle is there to provide more insulation. Once its got dirty and matted you can throw it out and dont have to replace it. It makes little difference.

No cat stoves are not necessarily more efficient, that is on a stove by stove basis. As a blanket policy the cat is more efficient though. Actually they list the stoves with different efficiency's right from the EPA:

5. What types of EPA-certified wood stoves are available for sale?

There are three basic types of wood stoves that have received certifications under the wood heater program:
Catalytic wood stoves are equipped with a ceramic or metal honeycomb device, called a combustor or catalyst. The catalyst is coated with a noble metal such as platinum or palladium that reduces the ignition temperature of the unburned volatile organic compounds, P\particulate matter and carbon monoxide in the exhaust gases prior to their exit into the atmosphere thereby reducing particulate matter emissions. As the components of these gases burn, the temperature inside the catalyst increases to the point at which the ignition of the gases is essentially self sustaining. Wood stoves equipped with catalytic combustors are assigned a default efficiency rating of 72%.


Pellet stoves are those wood heating appliances fueled by pellets of sawdust, wood products and other biomass materials pressed into manageable shapes and sizes. These stoves have active air flow systems and unique grate design to accommodate this type of fuel. Some pellet stove models are subject to the wood stove regulations, while others are exempt due to a high air to fuel ratio. Pellet stoves are assigned a default efficiency rate of 78%.


Non catalytic wood stoves are those wood stoves that do not use catalysts but do have emission-reducing technology. Typical emissions-reducing design characteristics for an EPA certified non-catalytic wood stove include baffles and secondary air chambers. Non- catalytic wood stoves are assigned a default efficiency rate of 63%.


Now all the metal secondary tubes in all stoves I have looked at were a wear item as stated by the manufacturers. Slowly loosing efficiency just like a cat over time, eventually needing replaced. They are tiny thin walled tubes reaching repeated super high heat as needed for efficient burning in those style stoves. As anyone knows little tubes, high heat, equals metal fatigue and eventual failure.

I do agree that EPA needs to have all the stoves sold tested instead of using a default efficiency. Right now it is up to the stove manufacturer to have his stove independently tested and many stoves are not tested. Now to me the gram per hour rating is useless, more or less. Lets look at vehicles for a second. A diesel engine is far more efficient than a gas engine is. Now using your gram per hour rating, the diesel will actually have more emissions coming out the exhaust than the gas engine will. However the diesel is more efficient. Same with wood stoves. Efficiency and g/hr are two separate things. You could have one stove at 80% efficient and putting out 6 g/hr, and another stove that is 40% efficient and yet only putting out 2 g/hr. Hard to choose a stove from just one aspect. Here is a list of efficiency's both default and tested from the EPA http://www.epa.gov/Compliance/resources/publications/monitoring/caa/woodstoves/certifiedwood.pdf

You do not need a huge firebox for use in a cat stove. Not sure where you got that from? The reason the blaze king has a huge firebox is longer burn time (more wood more heat, longer), and they are sold in cold climates where hardwood can only be bought as part of an axe or sledge hammer. The west has a choice of pine, aspen, or cottonwood. We do not have the oak, hedge, locust many others do. So less BTU wood means you need more wood to get a all day burn. So large firebox and high efficiency stoves are a must. Well unless you never leave the house? Guys with the hardwoods try filling your stoves with pine and see how long your stove will heat with a load, I am curious. I might actually start at thread like that...hmm.

I fall into the category of try it before you buy it. I am no expert. Bring some wood that you currently burn and find a stove dealer that has one burning and properly installed. Try it out, play with it. Start from a cold firebox to see how hard it is to get a fire going, add a full load of wood to the box and see how long it provides good heat. I did this and that is why I picked a Blaze King. Many stoves were cheaper by a lot, however I plan on having this one a good many decades. Would you buy a car without test driving it? I would never buy a stove I could not burn first. I would hate to spend thousands on a new stove just to get it home and find out my old stove out performed the new one!

Here I typed this whole thing up and you guys beat me to the punch already!!
 
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Now all the metal secondary tubes in all stoves I have looked at were a wear item as stated by the manufacturers. Slowly loosing efficiency just like a cat over time, eventually needing replaced. They are tiny thin walled tubes reaching repeated super high heat as needed for efficient burning in those style stoves. As anyone knows little tubes, high heat, equals metal fatigue and eventual failure.

Tubes are stainless steel and very possibly after many years of 'regular' or 'normal' use they may need to be replaced. They are just hollow stainless tubes with holes drilled in them. It's very unlikely you would need to replace them after 5 years use. If anything 10-15 years is more like it. Which is about the life of a catalytic combustor anyway. It could be that some MFG tube thickness is thinner therefore reducing the life of the tubes.

On some of our brands (Osburn & Enerzone) we give lifetime warranty of burn tubes. So you are covered no matter what.

Blaze Kings has an outstanding reputation and very few people would say bad things about them. My bugly comment was my IMHO from looking at the Princess and the King models. However, if you are after heat and not look it should not matter.
 
I'm not familar with Blaze King wood stoves but at the 56 second mark: "Blaze King catalytic wood stoves are 4 times as energy efficient as any non-catalytic wood stove......"


This is an outright lie!


Don't trust them.


I stopped watching at that point.

Del I think what they forgot to say was its 4 times more efficient than the standard stoves without secondary burn technology's. Now this is confusing and had you watched the whole thing I think it might have help explain it in terms more realistic, like actual wood use savings. They are using the g/hr rating of stoves to measure efficiency as the government does. The average non secondary stove has 4.6 g/hr rating. The Blaze King king has 1.76 g/hr. So 4.6 divided by 1.76=2.875 times more efficient. Still over embellished although I have yet to see a stove maker that has not done the same or worse in trying to sell their product. Take Lopi for instance, they advertise that their Liberty stove as follows:

Liberty (ND)

Available in U.S. Only
At only 2.6 grams of emissions per hour, The Liberty is the cleanest burning large stove ever approved by the EPA. Is is also the largest stove made by Lopi. A large viewing area and cooktop surface the liberty gives about as much as a wood stove could ever give. Featuring the largest firebox of any large stove, logs up to 24 inches in length can be loaded into the unit.


Now keep in mind they make a fine stove and many people love their stoves from them. However 2.6 g/hr is 1.48 times more g/hr than my stove as tested by the EPA. They also Do Not have the largest firebox. Now considering my stove is not the largest or cleanest tested by EPA.. well you got it advertising and buyer beware.
 
Tubes are stainless steel and very possibly after many years of 'regular' or 'normal' use they may need to be replaced. They are just hollow stainless tubes with holes drilled in them. It's very unlikely you would need to replace them after 5 years use. If anything 10-15 years is more like it. Which is about the life of a catalytic combustor anyway. It could be that some MFG tube thickness is thinner therefore reducing the life of the tubes.

On some of our brands (Osburn & Enerzone) we give lifetime warranty of burn tubes. So you are covered no matter what.

Blaze Kings has an outstanding reputation and very few people would say bad things about them. My bugly comment was my IMHO from looking at the Princess and the King models. However, if you are after heat and not look it should not matter.

Yes I agree, either way you will have "wear" items. Every 5-15 years just depending on how the stove is used/abused. Everybody has different tastes on what looks good and what doesn't. I grew up where stoves were not fashion statements but a way of keeping all your toes and fingers where they belong, on you!:) Haven't seen a real nice stove since the old cook stoves and the round oaks for looks. There are so many good stoves out their it just comes down to what will work for each person on an individual basis.
 
I don't have the fan on my D.S.. It is around a $250 option. My stove is also a 2011 model. The 2012 model has an adjustable air wash and comes with a slotted plate to cover the grates to build a better ash bed when burning wood. I haven't seen the need for either as long as you use dry wood, burn hot enough and let the ash bed build up enough to take advantage of the air vents on top of the grates. I didn't pay that much for mine, but I live in Pa where they are built. I didn't realize that you are so far away. They are located in Gordonville, PA and the stove weighs 750lbs. Maybe that will help you make a determination. Maybe look up D.S. dealers in your area for a better price?

Just spoke with one of the guys from DS on the phone, they have a dealer about 3 hours from me, but it's a small Amish shop with no phone. I got a factory price of $1900+175 or so shipping, I did get them to send me a brochure to add to the pile of stove brochures I have already. I won't completely rule it out yet. Maybe I can come up with a reason to drive down to Platteville and see one in person.

Slightly off topic question: Most stoves have a 84" floor to ceiling clearance. I have 84" downstairs but no more. Does this mean I couldn't build a raised (non combustible) platform to put the stove on? Most of the newer stoves are lower than I like, but I can put up with it as is if need be.
 
Del I think what they forgot to say was its 4 times more efficient than the standard stoves without secondary burn technology's. Now this is confusing and had you watched the whole thing I think it might have help explain it in terms more realistic, like actual wood use savings. They are using the g/hr rating of stoves to measure efficiency as the government does. The average non secondary stove has 4.6 g/hr rating. The Blaze King king has 1.76 g/hr. So 4.6 divided by 1.76=2.875 times more efficient. Still over embellished although I have yet to see a stove maker that has not done the same or worse in trying to sell their product.

Mmmmm... This is where this baloney gets confusing. If it is true, then what is meant is more efficient at burning smoke.

However, efficiency for most wood stove consumer means how much of the heat do I get to keep in the house. The stack loss method of measuring efficiency is the best way to do so. At 85% efficiency using this method it means you lose 15% of your heat exhausting it via the chimney to the outside.
 
Yep too many ways to test stoves, and many of the ways are not useful in the real world of lets just keep the house warm and use less wood. I know of about 3 different tests on wood stoves. Kind of useless just like the square footage rating used, each house heats differently.
 
Just spoke with one of the guys from DS on the phone, they have a dealer about 3 hours from me, but it's a small Amish shop with no phone. I got a factory price of $1900+175 or so shipping, I did get them to send me a brochure to add to the pile of stove brochures I have already. I won't completely rule it out yet. Maybe I can come up with a reason to drive down to Platteville and see one in person.

Slightly off topic question: Most stoves have a 84" floor to ceiling clearance. I have 84" downstairs but no more. Does this mean I couldn't build a raised (non combustible) platform to put the stove on? Most of the newer stoves are lower than I like, but I can put up with it as is if need be.

Not sure about other stoves but mine lists 72" floor to ceiling clearance. Would just depend on the stove for clearance but I would not go past their recommendations.
 
Steve, I don't know what the floor to ceiling clearance is. I need to look into that. I think my stove had a top of stove to ceiling measurement. I did raise my DS a total of 7" using 3-1/2" square tubing stacked 2 high. I don't like to load a low stove either. It makes a world of difference. Clearances can be reduced with a shield such as sheet metal and a 1" air gap behind it. There is a wealth of info. on it.
I was driving home from a work related trip and stopped by to see them. They are about 5 hours from me. I talked to Dave Jr.. He was a big help. I had to see one as I need to look something over good before I'll commit to it. I won't put down another brand as everything else I have any experience with was very dated. I do know I like this product. It is simple, built like a tank and it just plain works. There are a few You Tube videos on the DS Machine Stoves, if you want to look into it a little further. Whatever you decide, get the biggest firebox you can when comparing the same class or output stove. New EPA units do stretch your wood dollar, but it seems the best way for long burn times a large firebox size is the way to go.
 
A friend of mine has a Cunningham heater by Suppertime stoves. He looked at the Blaze King as well as the Pacific Energy Summit. The Cunningham has an automatic damper as well as a very large firebox and btu output. He is took out a Regency stove that didnt hold enough wood for the long periods of time he is at work (13+ hours a day plowing snow). The Cunningham is also less than half the price of either the Blaze King or the Pacific Energy.
Comfort Time Stoves : Cunningham Heater : Western Canada's Official Dealer of Amish Quality Airtight Wood Stoves and Heaters!
 
A friend of mine has a Cunningham heater by Suppertime stoves. He looked at the Blaze King as well as the Pacific Energy Summit. The Cunningham has an automatic damper as well as a very large firebox and btu output. He is took out a Regency stove that didnt hold enough wood for the long periods of time he is at work (13+ hours a day plowing snow). The Cunningham is also less than half the price of either the Blaze King or the Pacific Energy.
Comfort Time Stoves : Cunningham Heater : Western Canada's Official Dealer of Amish Quality Airtight Wood Stoves and Heaters!

Wow, learn something everyday. Never heard of them...

BTW where about in Southern Ont are you? I'm in Kitchener.
 
Turkey they are kind of vague about what is going on inside of the Cunningham:

Cunningham Heater

Free set of replacement fire bricks with every new Suppertime Stove. $100 savings!

The shape of the Cunningham is curved to allow for expansion during heating.
Hunh?

Heats your house evenly, back to front and bottom to top. As the heat rises from the stove, it is designed to pull cool air off the floor which circulates the heat evenly throughout the house.
Burns less wood, yet generates more heat.
Uhmmm...yep it's called convection.

Porcelain enamel finish, with a glass-coated paint that cleans easily and keeps its shine for years. Available in black, blue, or hunter green.

Thermostatically heat-controlled. The thermostat is made of metal coils that expand and close the air flow as the temperature in the house rises and falls. This makes it possible to regulate heat in the house through the night, only adding wood to maintain heat during the day.
This I like!

No need for floor protection, and can be installed to within 20" of a side or back wall.

Ashes are easily removed through the front ash door.
Another plus.

The primary combustion chamber is brick-lined. The Cunningham has a secondary combustion chamber for greater efficiency and cleaner exhaust.
They don't say what kind of secondary's it has and no diagram of it.

The Cunningham puts out 75,000 BTU's of heat.

All interior parts of the Cunningham are replaceable.

Colour Choice Black, Blue or Hunter Green

*Cunningham Heater is ULC inspected

*Recommended for wood fuel, not coal

 
Wow, learn something everyday. Never heard of them...

BTW where about in Southern Ont are you? I'm in Kitchener.
I am south of Tillsonburg

Turkey they are kind of vague about what is going on inside of the Cunningham:
I will try to find a better website with more info.

The Cunningham line looks just like the Riteway stoves of the eighties right down to the thermostatally controled air input. Looks like a steel stove with a Porcelain shroud and that explains the clearance to combustables.


They've got some nice looking cook stoves.

All I know is that they are Amish built locally. And I have two friends with the Cunningham and both are pleased with the performance of the stove as well as the price.
 
Lot of advantages

Whatever stove or manufacturer you decide upon, get one that will take 24 inch wood.

It will save you a lot of processing time when putting up your yearly supply.

No need to worry about pieces being too long and not finding out until you try to shove them in and can't close the stove door in the middle of the night. If the chunk / log fits on a standard 2 foot stroke splitter it will go in the stove.

When loading for a long burn, ie overnight, three 24 inch pieces is the equivalent of four 18 inch pieces. (assuming same size splits)

My experience, take it for what you will.

Take Care
 
Lot of advantages

Whatever stove or manufacturer you decide upon, get one that will take 24 inch wood.

It will save you a lot of processing time when putting up your yearly supply.

No need to worry about pieces being too long and not finding out until you try to shove them in and can't close the stove door in the middle of the night. If the chunk / log fits on a standard 2 foot stroke splitter it will go in the stove.

When loading for a long burn, ie overnight, three 24 inch pieces is the equivalent of four 18 inch pieces. (assuming same size splits)

My experience, take it for what you will.

Take Care

Very few EPA rated stoves that I know of will take such long logs. Since they are designed to burn slow and steady you typically will not see such deep stoves. We make a few that can load North/South with 22".
 
While I agree that cutting the rounds as long as possible may be the most efficient...I was thinking the same as Firebug. There aren't very many EPA stoves that will handle over 22", (at least ones I looked into). The OP is cutting at 16" till he decides on a stove. I think he is doing it right. If he ends up with a longer firebox he could always cut some short, to match the width, lay them in perpendicular and still fill the firebox. The other side is short wood drys faster.
 
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