Nitro Troubles

[ehp]

most saws will cut faster with the more methanol /nitro you give it but most will run out of fuel before finishing there cuts because either the jets are to small or if you make them to big the same thing will happen cause if you are to big the saw will be loaded up in the first cut but have power now the carb can only pump so many gallons/litres whatever per hour and if you are to big it will have lots of fuel at idle and the first cut but because of a very large high speed circuit that can pass more fuel than the carb can pump you will run out of fuel before you are finished your cuts.

 

[ehp]

who's nitro and methanol are you using Brian ?

 

[ehp]

now you did length your pipe which should help , now when you length it did your in the wood rpm's go down cause they should of unless you were way to lean to start with, if you can drop your compression by 20 pounds I would but do you have a head on this saw ? If you donot have a head on it can you put a base gasket back in with making your ext. port and tranfser ports just to high, on a 26 you can have really high ports because that motor is all about rpm's

 

[timberwolf]

Ed, I am using large scale RC car fuel 15% cut with methanol and oil added as needed, think I will look into some better quality fuel just to isolate a variable, you can fix me up with some of the good stuff?

The saw still has it's head (for now), and I could raise the jug a bit but exhaust numbers are getting up there in the same range as the saw you built for crofter.

When I put an inch on the pipe I it picked up a bit in the wood, so it would confirm it is on the lean side, but I am not getting hot at all.

 

[ShoerFast]

But now were talking!!!

Rick, For me it's all just fun, but it was good to have EJ there, he was open to share ideas, but hey all info is suspect to a certain degree, it is after all a race. I don't think he told me any lies and if he did they must have been good ones.

Beter yet having some strong saws there showed that a woods saw does not cut it against alky saws, nito ect. It raises the bar and puts some fun into to it to saw better and build a faster saw, I wont say better saw because a woods saw and a race saw are two different things.

Ed, I think I was headed in the right direction by what you said, I just had not gone far enough. It is increadible the amount of fuel that needs to get trough.

So well said!

Running saws on nitro just gets my leg to shaking!

It says that God rested on the 7th day,,,, then I think he came up with the ideas for nitro on the 8th!

A couple of years ago at a NHRA race meeting, I brought up an idea of running methane just for a closed track test in the afterburner, the descusion started well, intell I brought up then mixing in a little nitro,,,,got shot down right now, and how! Oh well

Raising the bar is right! what could be next?

Kevin

 

[timberwolf]

Direct injection NOS, proplyene oxide, maybe something with liquid oxygen.

It sure is fun, but hurts the puzzler a bit, the rules change as soon as you move away from good old predictable gas.

Brian

But if he had of made nitro on the first day he would have got things going fast and have been done by Thursday.

 

[ehp]

Yes Brian I would say you are to lean, now if this saw is going to be a pipe saw only you can go alot higher than I did on FRank's 260 and to run right it would need to be higher so put a base gasket in her and watch her fly , just make sure the ring cannot get into your intake port and catch cause you raised the jug higher, if you didnot play much on the top of the intake port you should be safe but it is better to look before than after it breaks

 

[timberwolf]

I did not go up much on the intake, then it was moved down as was the top of the piston, should be ok there.

Thanks

Brian

 

[rmihalek]

Hey ShoerFast,

It's hard to imagine needing anything more than nitromethane/methanol mixtures as a fuel source. If you look at NHRA Top Fuel, they're getting around 1hp per cc from the engines. Now, they burn close to a gallon a second, but still, you get the picture. When Timberwolf gets his 260 up to around 50hp, then perhaps new fuel sources could be investigated. It seems here the need is to upgrade the fuel delivery system to flow a very large quantity of fuel very quickly.

I'm wondering about the sources of nitromethane and methanol. I know VP Racing Fuels sells both. Who else sells it? Are there differences between manufacturers? Shouldn't pure nitromethane be the same regardless of where it's purchased?

 

[ehp]

VP buys their nitro from Angus , Klotzs make a good nitro as well. No there is a difference between different nitro's some good some bad , I find if you happen to get some nitro from either of these 2 brands on you not much happens but what they call China nitro is not good , it will burn your skin and make it turn black and blue so I stay with the 2 brands.

 

[rmihalek]

"China nitro" Just the thought of it gives me the willies. It's probably contaminated with phenol or benzene. I've heard of Klotz. I think they've been around for a long time.

 

[timberwolf]

I think there may only be one running plant in making nito in north america right now.

Sure not getting 50 hp from the 260 but I would not be surprised if it was 7-8, I bet it would out cut a true stock 066 may be close to an out of the box 088 with factory chain in small wood.

Looks like it will be the weekend before I can work on it again.

Brian

 

[ehp]

i am sure you are cutting fast Brian , if the stock 088 is running a 8 pin gear I would think the 066 would be faster in small wood

 

[ShoerFast]

Methane is a hydroscope,,,,, it sucks water out of air,,

Hey ShoerFast,

It's hard to imagine needing anything more than nitromethane/methanol mixtures as a fuel source. If you look at NHRA Top Fuel, they're getting around 1hp per cc from the engines. Now, they burn close to a gallon a second, but still, you get the picture. When Timberwolf gets his 260 up to around 50hp, then perhaps new fuel sources could be investigated. It seems here the need is to upgrade the fuel delivery system to flow a very large quantity of fuel very quickly.

I'm wondering about the sources of nitromethane and methanol. I know VP Racing Fuels sells both. Who else sells it? Are there differences between manufacturers? Shouldn't pure nitromethane be the same regardless of where it's purchased?

Bob Mihalek

Got to rember that Top Fuel cars are running a ton of boost and using recording computers for there tune.

We did'nt get near Top Fuel speeds, but we did burn about 30 gallons of K1 each pass. The large amount of fuel need for that was easy,,, just stuff it in an afterburner.

Methane can absorbe water out of the air, if it's not stored right , it should test at .792 @ 68°F the old school out-laws would count on that to cheat in like the Quick - 16 classes, but now thay watch for none accepted fuels as the nitro's have been dyed, and you can smell it at about 20%.

Here, Bandimere speedway has good Methane, I was helping some friends with there Quick 16 car and it was getting slower each pass,
After each pass we were topping the tank off with some last years meth, (from Mile High Speedway) with out thinking to test it,,,,, it was high.
Buying freash Methane brought it back to a 7.0 @ 200 mph

Most tracks sell there own fuels, and your better off using them, even if there not consistant, cause if some one would contest a win, it's too big of a hassle to fight, if it's the tracks fuel you skate that test.

Pure Nitromethane should test at 1.139 , it's made from propane, but it seems that it can vary some as to it's make up,,,,,, Dale Schomacher is starting to brand and market his own mix under the ProNitro line,,,,, he has way too many wins to think there isant a factor in differances.

An 026 seems like a good saw to start with,,,, my idea would be to run a blower off the lazy side and go from there, as I could stick with knowing beans about porting, and blame it on packing!

Kevin

The picture is the very first run buy the worlds fastest Borgward, running pure Methane,,,, (the day we had the bad batch)

 

[Crofter]

The things we do for fun!

Lets see now? you have screwed up, reamed out and bathterdised 3 carbs, that burn 3 times as much fuel, that cost 9 times as much as pump gas! It now will no longer run on gasoline, has to be flushed out every time you use it or it will self destruct the carb, plastic fuel tank and engine bearings. The pipe sticks 3 feet out the side of the saw, the mix oil is poisonous, the fuel makes your skin peel and sets off your asthma!...........Why don't you just take the 066 and go cut some wood?
Sure is amazing though to watch a nitro saw cut!

 

[timberwolf]

It's not the first stupid thing I have done, is it?

But I have only messed up 2 carbs, and it will still run on gas, just that its a bit finiky now.

Does everything need to be sensible in such an abstract world?

Time well wasted.

 

[timberwolf]

Sorry bout that Crofter, I reread your post, thought it was a poke at first, well maybe it was but I guess not ment in the way I first read it.

Makes me mad at myself when I have 4 saws sitting on the bench and not one of them fit to cut a tree without changing chains, carbs, taking pipes off or otherwise rebuilding or putting the saw back together. Got work to do and I am messing with making saws unusable for any practicle application.

Need to go clean up, wife just stepped in bar oil. It's not going well today!

 

[Crofter]

Just laughing at the fooling around that we can do with things to make them go fast or shoot ridiculously small groups with a rifle, etc. Been there and done worse.

Is it possible to pressurise the fuel tank with exhaust gas to help fuel delivery like is done with glow engines?

 

[ccicora]

Very bright idea, just send what ever embers/ sparks or what ever else can burn or is burning towards the Alky with Nitro.... It could make for a real hotsaw. Sparks near fuel tanks don't mix..... Trust me I know....

 

[bwalker]

pure Methane,,,,

You mean methanol?