OH NO ! ! ! -- another CSM meltdown

[mtngun]

Ha, you thought I'd fried another engine ?

The Oly exhaust has been pretty hard on one of the CSM wheels. The wheel keeps melting and shrinking.

I'm not going to replace it because I'd already decided that the wheels suck. They are always hanging up in the cracks of the bark or on knots.

In order to roll reliably over douglas fir bark, the wheels would have to be 4" - 6", which isn't practical. I plan to revert back to a skid this winter, but it'll probably be an improved skid, though.

 

[BobL]

I agree, bark with large folds in it is difficult to deal with but the way your wheels are set up they were never going to work properly anyway.

Since you mainly make cants I will restrict myself to making comments about making the first log cut.

If the bottom wheels are too near the cut (as your are) and they are too rounded (as both mine and your are) they will continually try to creep or ride up the log.
My wheels are made of teflon and tend to slip rather than grip like roller blade wheels but they could be better especially as you say, in large bark folds.

The important thing is to get the wheels dow as low as possible which is is why I put my bottom wheels as far down as I could, like this.

Now even these are not low enough for some big logs and this is why I went for this design on my small alaskan.

The vertical rods can be replaced with different lengths of rod so the wheels always run on the vertical side of the log. I haven't used these much but so far they work extremely well and will be part of the design of my next mill.

I agree bigger wheels will help and I also plan to use 4" wheels on my next mill.

 

[BIG JAKE]

I had the intent of putting wheels on, but I found that if I jack one end of the log up in the air a little it takes no effort anyway to mill. I've milled horizontal too and still don't see the need for wheels, although I agree it would help in some situations with no bark or smooth bark trees. The rough pondy and douglas fir bark catches the skid occasionally-but hasn't been an issue for me.
Glad you didn't smoke another top end Mtngun-I'd like to see you get that outbuilding dried in before 1st snowfall!

 

[mtngun]

Since you mainly make cants I will restrict myself to making comments about making the first log cut.

Actually, the Alaskan is used mainly to cut slabs. I use the mini-mill to make cants. Are you still on meds ?

The important thing is to get the wheels down as low as possible which is is why I put my bottom wheels as far down as I could

That would help on the top half of the log, but would be worse than useless on the bottom half of the log.

When you are milling a log that is laying on the ground, which is sometimes necessary, the CSM's ground clearance is very much an issue. If the wheels hung down low, they would snag the ground, branches, etc., and get hung up.

Yes, you could make the height adjustable, but that would add weight, and you'd have to pause to readjust the height several times for each log. That would only be acceptable if the height adjustment was locked/unlocked with some type of camlock, rather than bolts. And that could be done, if you had the time and the money and the motivation, as you seem to have.

All of your points are valid, but there are compromises with weight, complexity, and bulk.

I do enjoy watching you perfect the CSM, and I've borrowed a few of your good ideas -- like the on-board tach. But mostly, and not just with regards to CSMs, but firearms, vehicles, pocketknives, you name it -- I gravitate toward tools that are light weight, simple, reliable, easy to maintain, and economical. You seem to gravitate toward the Swiss army knife type of tool, with all the bells and whistles. They both have their place.

 

[Brmorgan]

I was gonna say, if you blew another topend it might be time for another hobby!

I've never really seen the need for wheels below the cut - above would help me because the V edge of the depth post wants to dig into the side of the log if the cut is below the center of the diameter. I have some 3" steel ball bearing casters we use for small rollcases at the mill that I was thinking of rigging something up with eventually.

 

[BobL]

Actually, the Alaskan is used mainly to cut slabs. I use the mini-mill to make cants. Are you still on meds ?

That would help on the top half of the log, but would be worse than useless on the bottom half of the log.

The wheel design on the small mill is such that the bottom half of the log is dead easy and there are no clearance issues. The vertical rod holding the wheels are flipped vertically so they are above the bar and if necessary shorter ones are used so they don't touch the ground.

 

[mtngun]

I was gonna say, if you blew another topend it might be time for another hobby!

I would make a good product tester because if anyone can make something fail, it's me. I don't have to put any effort into it, it just comes natural.

The Granberg skids do hang up sometimes. They are not big enough to navigate over larger bumps.

Other times the vertical post will dig into the edge of the wood.

I was thinking to make a skid mounted on the vertical post, with some sort of quick adjust for height, because any kind of skid or roller system has to be adjusted for height in order to be effective.

 

[BobL]

I would make a good product tester because if anyone can make something fail, it's me. I don't have to put any effort into it, it just comes natural.

Well I figure products should have some level of bullet proofness about them so good product testers are valuable people to have around.

The Granberg skids do hang up sometimes. They are not big enough to navigate over larger bumps. Other times the vertical post will dig into the edge of the wood.

I was thinking to make a skid mounted on the vertical post, with some sort of quick adjust for height, because any kind of skid or roller system has to be adjusted for height in order to be effective.

I see you have a metal ring over your inboard upright. On huds 3120 we use a metal ring which has a threaded hole in it and lock it at the appropriate vertical height. Not as good as wheels but much better than the naked upright.

 

[mtngun]

On huds 3120 we use a metal ring which has a threaded hole in it and lock it at the appropriate vertical height. Not as good as wheels but much better than the naked upright.

It's just a piece of plastic pipe, and yes, I copied the idea from you.

See, I'm not opposed to CSM improvements providing they are simple, rugged, and light weight. We learn a lot from each other on this forum.

 

[discounthunter]

at least its cheaper to fix than a top end!

how about a skidder like the oem one but instead of flat metal maybe some half-round?

 

[BobL]

It's just a piece of plastic pipe, and yes, I copied the idea from you.

We also tried plastic pipe but even though it was about 3/16" thick could not cut a big/strong enough thread in it to lock it in place up close to the height of the mill rails where it is needed. Eventually the pipe stretched and it dropped down away from the contact point..

Our next plan was to use thick plastic pipe that was slightly smaller in diameter than the mill upright so it clipped onto the upright as follows.

The other idea was to use several pieces of different lengths of this plastic pipe to so that some of the plastic was at the rubbing height. We couldn't find any of the appropriate size pipe at the time we were messing with this.

See, I'm not opposed to CSM improvements providing they are simple, rugged, and light weight.

I never thought you were, your posts show you are a high-value no-nonsense product tester, prepare to call a spade a spade - absolutely essential in today's over-hyped world.

We learn a lot from each other on this forum.

We sure do. If newbies reading this forum were to drill back through this forum they will see that 90% of what I try-do-use is copied from someone else.

 

[mtngun]

I wish I'd thought of that ! ! !

But, it would probably rub off eventually. The saw pulls the CSM into the log pretty forcefully.

[/QUOTE]

I won't be doing the mods until late winter, so I have a lot of time to think about it.

 

[Fallguy1960]

Has anyone tried a ball shape instead of a wheel? Something like a billiard ball. That why there would be no edge to hook a grove. And as you go around the curve of the log it would ride above or below center on the ball. If I had Bob's ability with the computer I would draw it out. Because a picture is worth a 1000 words.

 

[BobL]

I wish I'd thought of that ! ! !

But, it would probably rub off eventually. The saw pulls the CSM into the log pretty forcefully.

Just replace it when it does. We were using high pressure black PE irrigation pipe.

 

[BobL]

Has anyone tried a ball shape instead of a wheel? Something like a billiard ball. That why there would be no edge to hook a grove. And as you go around the curve of the log it would ride above or below center on the ball..

If you look at my bottom wheel fitting you will see it is "ball like".

The wheel is made from black PE riding on the outside of a black PE irrigation pipe hex endcap, where the hex end has been turned into a hemispherical shape. It's both the slipperiness of the material and the shape that helps it stay down but on real rough bark it will still ride up the log.

The wheel above the bar is made of white teflon and is very slippery.

 

[Andrew96]

OK, I'm just going to throw this out feeling confident that you guys are open to different ideas...I know you are.
Look at the other side of the problem. The rough surface you are trying to ride your wheels on. On one crazy edge I was cutting this past spring I was getting hung up every few inches...really driving me crazy. I screwed a bit of 2x4 (it was too short though) to the side of the tree and had a nice flat surface to 'bridge' the wonky bit.
Now I throw a bit of 3/8" 3" x 8' ply in. Screw it to the side when I get a wonky bit of tree. Not the option you are after since Mtnguns trees all have wonky bark...but it works. My wheels rode nicely on it.

 

[Woodsurfer]

That's a good idea. I have been using some hemlock I milled as-is and you can see all the places where I got hung up or kind of pivoted through the wood.

Another wacky idea could be to add longer skids to the mill to better bridge the rough edges...

 

[BobL]

A side load board is a good idea for rough surfaces especially when the sides of the log are near vertical or the lower half of the log but it will be less effective milling the top 3rd of the log.

When I mill regular shaped logs which have no bark and hence have a smooth surface the first few cuts, where the wheels make contact with the log surface at a steep angle, can be still difficult. This not because of surface roughness but because the wheels will still try to ride up the log. In this situation, for the board to be effective it will have to be attached to the log at an angle to the log surface.

The wheel that generally rides up the log is the leading wheel. When this becomes a problem I reduced this effect by angling the mill so that only the trailing wheel contacts the log. This requires a bit more physical effort by placing pressure on the outboard side of the mille but improves the finish especially of the first cut. Lowering the wheels below the bar so they make contact lower down the side of the log further reduced the problem.

 

[Brmorgan]

That's a good idea. I have been using some hemlock I milled as-is and you can see all the places where I got hung up or kind of pivoted through the wood.

Another wacky idea could be to add longer skids to the mill to better bridge the rough edges...

That's not such a wacky idea - it's actually the first mod that Will Malloff suggests in his book and is something I have been meaning to do.

 

[DRB]

Has anyone tried a ball shape instead of a wheel? Something like a billiard ball. That why there would be no edge to hook a grove. And as you go around the curve of the log it would ride above or below center on the ball. If I had Bob's ability with the computer I would draw it out. Because a picture is worth a 1000 words.

Like this? These are old office chair wheels.

I have made a set that can be mounted to the upper rails so that the wheels can ride down the side of my guide board in stead of the log. I have not tried these out yet. The wheels may put to much side loading on the guide board.