OWB Insurance Rates

[blackdogon57]

To make matters worse they won't even look at my out building which is a commercial kennel or any of the liability associated with kennel or firewood business. That's a separate policy.

 

[pyankura]

I don't know if you have state farm in Canada but that's what I use. We don't have an OWB but an insert but when I called them to tell them they really didn't care, no increase, no nothing except a note in the "file" to say I have an insert. I would guess that an insert is waaaaaaaaay more dangerous than an OWB at any distance!

 

[uglydukwling]

North Waterloo, but that may not help you. It's also a mutual, and farm mutuals don't generally insure outside their own county.

Are you sure the increase was all due to your owb? If you were appraised at about the same time, that could be your main problem. I have a big very old brick house that doesn't fit the appraisal formulas. When they last appraised my house, most of the lines on the new appraisal form didn't really apply, but they came up with a really unbelievable replacement cost, based mainly on area. They finally settled on a slightly lower cost, based on modern construction substituted for the original. (Things like brick veneer to replace the original solid masonry, etc). So now I'm paying based on this replacement cost, but I suspect that if I ever have a loss, they'll want to pay based on market value, which is probably negative. (The next owner will likely tear down all my buildings and subdivide.)

It reminds me of the time my previous company wanted me to insure my $5000 bulldozer based on its original cost of $200 000. I wonder what my chances of collecting would have been.

 

[svk]

If they give you any grief don't be shy to price out different companies. It really varies between providers how they view any type of wood burner. Find a good agent who wants to work for you and not the snob who sits behind a desk collecting renewals. Be upfront with what you have and are looking for. Someone will meet your needs.

My hunting cabin would have quite an annual surcharge to add a wood stove (due to distance to nearest FD) so I went with propane and the difference in rate pays for a year of heating. If I start to use it more in the winter as the kids get bigger that will change and I will be putting in a wood stove.

 

[zogger]

If they give you any grief don't be shy to price out different companies. It really varies between providers how they view any type of wood burner. Find a good agent who wants to work for you and not the snob who sits behind a desk collecting renewals. Be upfront with what you have and are looking for. Someone will meet your needs.

My hunting cabin would have quite an annual surcharge to add a wood stove (due to distance to nearest FD) so I went with propane and the difference in rate pays for a year of heating. If I start to use it more in the winter as the kids get bigger that will change and I will be putting in a wood stove.

How do these rates change if there is a sprinkler or other fire suppression system installed, like a halon system or something else?

Anyway, just unreal this hassle with a simple woodstove. My POV, natgas or propane is way more dangerous.

 

[AIM]

IMHO that is incredibly bad advice. If you have a claim and with fire it is going to be major. Fraud on an application is a perfect reason not to pay. If you claim you heated with propane and have not a single dollar spent in 4 years, you have a perfect verifiable justification for a fraudulent application and denial of claim.

Then my agent gave me incredibly bad advice cause he is the one that told me to do it this way. (I'll go with what he says)

 

[svk]

Really, Blackdragon57, a dislike? I'd like to hear why you think otherwise.....

 

[svk]

How do these rates change if there is a sprinkler or other fire suppression system installed, like a halon system or something else?

Anyway, just unreal this hassle with a simple woodstove. My POV, natgas or propane is way more dangerous.

All depends on the insurance company. Each one's bean counters view this a little difference.

The problem with wood that costs all of us is that some yahoos use unapproved, unmaintained, or poorly made devices that fail at the wrong time and burn the place down. That's why they have so many rules. The problem is that some rules are so draconian and/or made by someone who doesn't understand wood burners and what is safe and what isn't.

Regarding the post about not claiming the wood burner. Bad idea as that's a good way to get $0 if your house burns down and they determine or suspect the wood burner did it.

 

[Stihl310]

All depends on the insurance company. Each one's bean counters view this a little difference.

The problem with wood that costs all of us is that some yahoos use unapproved, unmaintained, or poorly made devices that fail at the wrong time and burn the place down. That's why they have so many rules. The problem is that some rules are so draconian and/or made by someone who doesn't understand wood burners and what is safe and what isn't.

Regarding the post about not claiming the wood burner. Bad idea as that's a good way to get $0 if your house burns down and they determine or suspect the wood burner did it.

I'd say its one thing to claim its not your primary source, but another to claim you don't use it at all ( no one said to do that on here, just saying).

From what I'm gathering from my insurance, they aren't worried about the fire, they're worried about a tree falling on it and what the replacement cost would be. He told me there have been claims on homeowners insurance to cover OWB replacements after an incident, and we all know the huge cost of that.

Who knows.

 

[svk]

Here's what the insurance co for my hunting cabin wanted:

1) UL approved unit
2) ALL stainless steel pipe
3) Pipe must dump into cement chimney OR go through the roof using UL approved chimney materials. No chimneys out the side wall.

After I would buy all of that they would still charge me an additional $170 per year to add the wood stove rider. All said propane costs me $130 per year....

 

[svk]

I'd say its one thing to claim its not your primary source, but another to claim you don't use it at all ( no one said to do that on here, just saying).

Again depends on the company. If you have a functional stove (regardless of if you use it) and don't claim it, that is considered material omission and could result in policy cancellation or refusal to pay benefits if the stove contributed to a fire. As I mentioned before, some ins companies don't care and others would have a cow if they found out.

 

[AIM]

Yes just to clarify my post. I never said to NOT claim the wood burning appliance. (stove, owb, furnace, whatever) If you have it you need to claim it.
My agent for whatever reason listed my propane furnace as my PRIMARY heat source and my OWB as my secondary heat source. I don't know what difference this makes but he said that if ever asked i was to state it this way as well.

Now some of you may say this is a fraudulent claim but is it? My propane furnace has gas in the tank and is but a turn of the dial from running and heating my house. It was installed in my home first and heated it for years. Simply because my OWB is able to keep up on it's own doesn't make it my PRIMARY heat source. Ya I know this is a play on words here but for some reason my ins comp wants to see gas as a PRIMARY.

 

[c5rulz]

Then my agent gave me incredibly bad advice cause he is the one that told me to do it this way. (I'll go with what he says)

In the event there is a claim, it will be investigated by an adjuster. Your agent will have nothing to do with the process.

I didn't see you have an OWB. I was referring to traditional stoves/furnaces. On my insurance the wood burner I have is in a detached garage and not part of the house. The Insurance Co. was not concerned with it for that fact.

 

[uglydukwling]

Another couple of anecdotes:
My previous insurance company didn't like wood stoves, but fireplaces didn't count. They sent some kid around to inspect my stove. He arrived with a sheaf of forms and specifications for clearance, etc. While he was trying to figure out what they meant, I noticed that every one of them referred to combustible construction. I pointed out that a solid masonry wall was not combustible, and he couldn't find any rules for non-combustible walls. Maybe there aren't any. He gave up and went away so I was ok for another year. But I knew I was going to have trouble sooner or later. So I replaced the stove with a masonry fireplace. I'd been thinking of doing that anyway because it took up less space (I could build it tight against the wall), I thought it suited the look of the room better, and I built it around a heatilator-style steel form so it should be about as good for heating.

Of course, after that, the company went out of the farm insurance business, and I had to scramble to find a company that would insure me. I found that most insurance companies don't write farm insurance. The company I finally found, lumped stoves and fireplaces together and charged an extra $50 per year, per fireplace.

While I was still dealing with the first company, I called the Insurance Bureau of Canada to see if there was a definition of a fireplace. I wanted to make sure that mine would be a fireplace and not a stove. He didn't have one, but he did say that in the case of manufactured units, if the manufacturer calls it a fireplace, it's a fireplace. He specifically mentioned the Acorn fireplace (remember those free-standing sheet-metal things?)

But then he said that the IBC is an industry association, not a regulatory body. It publishes guidelines, not rules, and the companies are free to disregard them and set their own. Apparently most of them do.

He also mentioned in passing that the IBC doesn't like OWB's. I wasn't really considering one back then, so I didn't pay attention. I can't remember why they didn't like them. He may have been the one who mentioned the freezing hazard, not my broker. Later, when I got interested in an OWB, I wrote to them to ask what their objection had been, but they didn't answer.

 

[Taxmantoo]

I actually do use my propane in the early fall and spring when temps are in the 40-50's during the daytime. The wood burner just isn't efficient when temps really warm up and its more hassle trying to keep it going than it is just to run the propane. We generally spend 3-500 a year on propane. Plus it keeps them off my back from threatening to come take my tank.

You bring up a good point. For those of us with hybrid heating systems, what fuel is "primary"?

In your case, I'd say the propane is primary and you supplement it with wood in the coldest weather. You already have solid fuel appliances claimed on your insurance declarations anyway, right?

In my case, I'm running an electric heat pump whenever it can keep up (temps over 20°) and propane when it can't, and I consider the heat pump to be primary. But this winter, I can go for a week straight on auxiliary heat without ever seeing temps that will let the system switch over to primary.

 

[H-Ranch]

You bring up a good point. For those of us with hybrid heating systems, what fuel is "primary"?

Yeah, I was thinking about that too. I can completely remove my OWB system and still use the propane furnace. The reverse cannot be said of removing the propane furnace as the OWB system would then be disabled. So does that make propane the primary? It would seem so.

It doesn't really matter for me - I told them I heat 100% with the OWB and even that I built it myself. They did ask how much the OWB outbuilding was worth and I told them $0 so it can be excluded with no coverage.

 

[beerman6]

Reading this has made my blood pressure rise.
8 years ago I called my Pioneer agent and asked what they thought about OWB's,he told me they loved them and to put it at least 20' from any structure.

On 1-24-14 they will no longer insure me because my OWB is not rated for a manufactured or mobile home....

 

[Stihl310]

Reading this has made my blood pressure rise.
8 years ago I called my Pioneer agent and asked what they thought about OWB's,he told me they loved them and to put it at least 20' from any structure.

On 1-24-14 they will no longer insure me because my OWB is not rated for a manufactured or mobile home....

What rating would that be? I'm confused.... Seems any excuse they can come up with, I could understand (a little more) if the OWB was your only heat source and freezing pipes were a concern. On the other hand any heat system can fail and allow pipes to freeze.

 

[StihlFroling]

sometimes its all corporate, lets say claims in your zip code are way up for whatever reason, flood, tornada, fraud. Corp tells them they can only write limited # of new policy or cant write anymore new policy. They have to cut potential losses for that region, so they are required to audit their policies. "thinning the herd" As an agent you get rid of your least profitable and or most liable policies. They will find a way to make their bottom line good.
State Farm is the worst when it comes to actual payout. Our area insurance rates have almost quadrupled in 13 years. No wood burning allowed indoors, unless its grandfathered , original pre-1954'. Yet in the next county, literally quarter mile, its burn all you want and have a good day.

 

[c5rulz]

sometimes its all corporate, lets say claims in your zip code are way up for whatever reason, flood, tornada, fraud. Corp tells them they can only write limited # of new policy or cant write anymore new policy. They have to cut potential losses for that region, so they are required to audit their policies. "thinning the herd" As an agent you get rid of your least profitable and or most liable policies. They will find a way to make their bottom line good.
State Farm is the worst when it comes to actual payout. Our area insurance rates have almost quadrupled in 13 years. No wood burning allowed indoors, unless its grandfathered , original pre-1954'. Yet in the next county, literally quarter mile, its burn all you want and have a good day.

Do you have any statistics to back this up?

Mixing flood incidents via zip code and denying coverage based on wood burners is mixing apples and oranges.

Further no agent is going to "thin the herd" as they are just salesmen after all and have no risk/actuarial duty.

I do agree with you about State Farm, they fight every claim from my experience.

When it comes to Insurance Companies, they all bill you just fine, have a claim and you will see if they are a good one.