What kind of torch do you use? How do you know that you are not overheating the chain? Love to see some photos/video of it the next time you have an opportunity. Please post it in this thread to share.
Philbert
Philbert's Chain Salvage Challenge
- Thread starter Philbert
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What kind of torch do you use? How do you know that you are not overheating the chain? Love to see some photos/video of it the next time you have an opportunity. Please post it in this thread to share.
Philbert
7sleeper
Addicted to ArboristSite
Last time I used the running oil furnace at my FIL place. Running oil furnace has a blue flame about 30-40cm long! I held the chain on a piece of steel through the service door and went down into the flame and up again and it was smoking nicely. Off into the oil bath and finished. Time in the flame was the amount I needed to go once completly one way and then the other way and out. Took less than a minute! Was resharpening his chain collection for the contra's, etc.
If I had a chain like this at home I would simply use a butane torch and go slowly once up and down the chain. Contact time is much to short for any "overheating" fears. When the chain is smoking it's "well done" and ready for the oil bath.
What I forgot, don't do this inside.... Don't ask why I know. Took me at least a hour to get the smell & smoke out of the basement at my FIL's place!
7
If I had a chain like this at home I would simply use a butane torch and go slowly once up and down the chain. Contact time is much to short for any "overheating" fears. When the chain is smoking it's "well done" and ready for the oil bath.
What I forgot, don't do this inside.... Don't ask why I know. Took me at least a hour to get the smell & smoke out of the basement at my FIL's place!
7
Not a 'challenge', but a 'scrounge' score!
Was at an estate sale, and apparently, the saw had already gone to a neighbor. But these chains were left behind in the shed. Got them for $.50 a loop.
'I guess Dad bought new chains instead of sharpening them' (explaining the several, empty Carlton boxes I also found).
70 DL loops of 3/8, low profile Carlton chain that may never have seen a file.
Philbert
Was at an estate sale, and apparently, the saw had already gone to a neighbor. But these chains were left behind in the shed. Got them for $.50 a loop.
'I guess Dad bought new chains instead of sharpening them' (explaining the several, empty Carlton boxes I also found).
70 DL loops of 3/8, low profile Carlton chain that may never have seen a file.
Philbert
Challenge Chain #13 (?)
I recently received this chain from one of our members. 3/8 low profile, .043, 50 DL, semi-chisel. I can use a 34 DL loop of this chain on a power pole pruner.
It is a STIHL chain with dimpled rivets and ramped depth gauges. Must be an older chain? I have only seen these types of depth gauges on Oregon 'Vanguard' chain.
Note the damaged cutters. Must have hit a rock? Abrasion goes back over half the top plate on some of the cutters. Others are virtually un-touched (not shown). Often I see damage on only the Right or only the Left cutters - this chain has equal opportunity damage! If most of the cutters were like this, it would not be worth saving.
Since I need to cut 16 drive links/8 cutters out of the loop to fit the short bar on my pole saw, I can choose the section with the most damaged cutters to remove, and maybe have to slightly grind back one or two cutters with less damage. Got a pre-set at my local STIHL dealer (they call it 'baby chain').
Chain after cleaning, before shortening the loop.
WINNER? Philbert! Got a usable STIHL chain for my pole saw in a less common size.
LESSONS?
- Damaged links are usually grouped in the same area of the loop.
- It is often easier to 'save' a chain when spinning it down to a smaller loop, than trying to repair or replace damaged cutters individually.
I recently received this chain from one of our members. 3/8 low profile, .043, 50 DL, semi-chisel. I can use a 34 DL loop of this chain on a power pole pruner.
It is a STIHL chain with dimpled rivets and ramped depth gauges. Must be an older chain? I have only seen these types of depth gauges on Oregon 'Vanguard' chain.
Note the damaged cutters. Must have hit a rock? Abrasion goes back over half the top plate on some of the cutters. Others are virtually un-touched (not shown). Often I see damage on only the Right or only the Left cutters - this chain has equal opportunity damage! If most of the cutters were like this, it would not be worth saving.
Since I need to cut 16 drive links/8 cutters out of the loop to fit the short bar on my pole saw, I can choose the section with the most damaged cutters to remove, and maybe have to slightly grind back one or two cutters with less damage. Got a pre-set at my local STIHL dealer (they call it 'baby chain').
Chain after cleaning, before shortening the loop.
WINNER? Philbert! Got a usable STIHL chain for my pole saw in a less common size.
LESSONS?
- Damaged links are usually grouped in the same area of the loop.
- It is often easier to 'save' a chain when spinning it down to a smaller loop, than trying to repair or replace damaged cutters individually.
LegDeLimber
Addicted to ArboristSite
Dimpled rivets eh?
Looks to me like about double the drag on sides of the chain when those are sliding through the wood.
....all that extra angular geometry and surplus tangential contact surfaces annnnd so forth.
Depth guides look like they'd be a bit tougher to pull too.
Basically, every little bump, nook and cranny, on the chain that's worn shiny,
is a drag/friction point.
Edit: I got a sore leg and it's making me grumpy & nit picky.
Looks to me like about double the drag on sides of the chain when those are sliding through the wood.
....all that extra angular geometry and surplus tangential contact surfaces annnnd so forth.
Depth guides look like they'd be a bit tougher to pull too.
Basically, every little bump, nook and cranny, on the chain that's worn shiny,
is a drag/friction point.
Edit: I got a sore leg and it's making me grumpy & nit picky.
LegDeLimber
Addicted to ArboristSite
Looks like it cleaned up nice though!
If We get to have 'em back, I'll say lets put a carburetor cleaning challenge on Philbert.
If We get to have 'em back, I'll say lets put a carburetor cleaning challenge on Philbert.
(Different union)
Philbert
Philbert
Anyone ever try TSP (tri-sodium phosphate) as a cleaner-solvent on chainsaw parts? I have used it to clean recycled heart pine lumber and remove paint , but never thought to try it on metal. It mixes with a lot of water, so it may not work so well on chainsaws.
Just Because You ASHed!
In another thread, we briefly discussed how lye (sodium hydroxide, or potassium hydroxide) can be leached from wood ash. There are lots of articles on the Internet on how to do this (hardwood ashes are better). Lye is used for soap making, drain cleaning, and other uses. It used to be commonly available in hardware stores, but now must be ordered from chemical supply houses. It is extremely caustic and corrosive, so care must be used in handling it.
I have mentioned how cleaners/degreasers with sodium hydroxide on the label worked better than those without. So the idea was that, maybe, ashes could be used for cleaning greasy chains? I did not have any really good challenge chain candidates. This Sabre chain (dual depth gauges!) had some grease on it, but not as bad as a lot of chains I get.
For a very unscientific experiment, I scooped some ashes out of the ash bucket and knocked out the bigger chunks. I have no idea what species of wood this was: I am a firewood scrounger and burn a lot of mixed stuff. I mixed the ash with hot tap water to make a grey solution that was more liquid than slurry, and set the chain in it for about 15 minutes, swishing a few times. Something must have happened. because I could see a light oil slick develop on the top. Took out the chain and hit it with a toothbrush, and a fine wire brush.
Definitely made a difference! It took more bushing than with the commercial cleaners, and was not as clean (lots of grease left on the brushes), but not too bad for a first try!
This would probably work better with a little more care: choose the wood species used for the ash; sift it more carefully; monitor the PH level with PH paper or some type of detector; etc. The on-line sources tell you to boil down the ash water to concentrate it, but that is a whole 'nother undertaking. I will probably stick with the commercial cleaners, but this could work somewhere where a degreaser is needed.
Philbert
In another thread, we briefly discussed how lye (sodium hydroxide, or potassium hydroxide) can be leached from wood ash. There are lots of articles on the Internet on how to do this (hardwood ashes are better). Lye is used for soap making, drain cleaning, and other uses. It used to be commonly available in hardware stores, but now must be ordered from chemical supply houses. It is extremely caustic and corrosive, so care must be used in handling it.
I have mentioned how cleaners/degreasers with sodium hydroxide on the label worked better than those without. So the idea was that, maybe, ashes could be used for cleaning greasy chains? I did not have any really good challenge chain candidates. This Sabre chain (dual depth gauges!) had some grease on it, but not as bad as a lot of chains I get.
For a very unscientific experiment, I scooped some ashes out of the ash bucket and knocked out the bigger chunks. I have no idea what species of wood this was: I am a firewood scrounger and burn a lot of mixed stuff. I mixed the ash with hot tap water to make a grey solution that was more liquid than slurry, and set the chain in it for about 15 minutes, swishing a few times. Something must have happened. because I could see a light oil slick develop on the top. Took out the chain and hit it with a toothbrush, and a fine wire brush.
Definitely made a difference! It took more bushing than with the commercial cleaners, and was not as clean (lots of grease left on the brushes), but not too bad for a first try!
This would probably work better with a little more care: choose the wood species used for the ash; sift it more carefully; monitor the PH level with PH paper or some type of detector; etc. The on-line sources tell you to boil down the ash water to concentrate it, but that is a whole 'nother undertaking. I will probably stick with the commercial cleaners, but this could work somewhere where a degreaser is needed.
Philbert
Attachments
Thanks for trying the ash/lye experiment. It is always interesting to know about alternative uses of wood burning byproducts. I would think that a refined process of lye creation would be useful if you needed a large quantity of degreaser for one-time use. Or store a large quantity. Guess the only advantage to ash/lye is the cost.
Jan-Sietze
ArboristSite Operative
For removing rust I use kitchen vinegar or white vinegar.
To get rid of fats and oil industrial cold degreaser works fine.
Let soak a few nights should be sufficient.
To get rid of fats and oil industrial cold degreaser works fine.
Let soak a few nights should be sufficient.
I'm REALLY excited this thread popped back up. I got a saw a few days back that had been sitting for at least 3 years. It was fitted with a 1/2" chain and I was horrified to see a section of the chain rusted & seized. I shot it with some PB blaster and figured soon I would start researching to see if it could be resurrected, and then the answer fell into my lap!
Can't wait to try some of these techniques. I would hate to have lost a 1/2" chain...
Can't wait to try some of these techniques. I would hate to have lost a 1/2" chain...
Might find yourself in a situation where some of the other products are just not available? In one of the YouTube videos on sharpening the guy states that he just used plain (purchased) lye and hot water to clean chains before sharpening. Might be cheaper than commercial degreasers? Might be harsher?
Vinegar works, and was one of the methods I tried in my early posts in this thread. It is easy to find and pretty safe to use. I turned some metals black, which may or may not be a problem.
Lost of cleaners and degreasers available: solvent based, citrus based, water based, etc. Some people do not want all of the grease removed, but want to leave a protective film on the metal. The sodium hydroxide cleaners work fast - 15 to 20 seconds on most chains. But they strip off all of the oil. So I rinse the chains well and dry them quickly in an oven to prevent rusting, then re-coat them with a light oil (WD-40) after sharpening to lubricate the rivets and protect the the chains from rust.
Please share your results (with 'before' and after 'photos')! I have been able to de-rust a number of chains, and free up a lot of seized links, but can't promise you that they will always be usable chains. Removing rust does not replace lost metal, so you could be left with weak spots. If only a small section of the chain is seized, you might want to consider replacing just that section with donor links from another chain.
Philbert
Philbert -
Given that I now consider you the resident expert on chain salvaging
, would you be willing to make a recommendation on which technique(s) to try if I post close pics of the chain?
Given that I now consider you the resident expert on chain salvaging
, would you be willing to make a recommendation on which technique(s) to try if I post close pics of the chain?
I apologize - I'm struggling to get a nice photo with my phone. If you need something better I can bust out the DSLR and try to get some quality close-ups. Thankfully it's a fairly short stretch of the chain that affected, but that short section does look pretty bad...
![IMG_3326[1].JPG](https://cdn.imagearchive.com/arboristsite/data/attachments/75/75445-f8856c7ce0cc1901bda0103e5dee7727.jpg "IMG_3326[1].JPG")
![IMG_3319[1].JPG](https://cdn.imagearchive.com/arboristsite/data/attachments/75/75446-b3a6b319bbc64323a7f767de6d346c98.jpg "IMG_3319[1].JPG")
![IMG_3324[2].JPG](https://cdn.imagearchive.com/arboristsite/data/attachments/75/75447-4224542c45e19a41894c9c785c389970.jpg "IMG_3324[2].JPG")
![IMG_3321[1].JPG](https://cdn.imagearchive.com/arboristsite/data/attachments/75/75448-9b6c248abdadf946d726d44afbdfb4e5.jpg "IMG_3321[1].JPG")
![IMG_3317[1].JPG](https://cdn.imagearchive.com/arboristsite/data/attachments/75/75449-c5a4c871013085833baab4b43406303a.jpg "IMG_3317[1].JPG")
From the photos, it looks like about 10 drive links are heavily rusted - the deep pitting shows metal that is lost. If you are planning on running it, the best thing to do would be to break out that section of chain and spin in new, matching links. The chrome is gone from some of these cutters, making them a loss, and rivets are probably weakened, even if you free them up. I am assuming that a saw that runs 1/2" chain has a lot of torque and will put a lot of tension on the chain.
For the rest of the chain, start with the most gentle methods and work up as needed. I would soak it in a commercial degreaser, to remove any crud and uncover any more rust which may be hiding there. This will also help clean out crud between the links. Brush it vigorously with a stiff brush, preferably a fine metal brush to clean out gunk around the rivet heads, under the cutters, etc., and to remove any light surface rust. An old toothbrush can be used on the chrome parts to minimize scratching. Dry the chain if using a water based degreaser. Then you can assess what else is needed.
If you want, you can soak the rusted links in one of the rust removal solutions in earlier posts. You might save a couple marginal links. You mentioned using PB Blaster on some frozen links. I found that it was easiest to free these up by holding the drive link in a vise and tapping on the tie straps (see Post #112) along with penetrating oil.
Philbert
For the rest of the chain, start with the most gentle methods and work up as needed. I would soak it in a commercial degreaser, to remove any crud and uncover any more rust which may be hiding there. This will also help clean out crud between the links. Brush it vigorously with a stiff brush, preferably a fine metal brush to clean out gunk around the rivet heads, under the cutters, etc., and to remove any light surface rust. An old toothbrush can be used on the chrome parts to minimize scratching. Dry the chain if using a water based degreaser. Then you can assess what else is needed.
If you want, you can soak the rusted links in one of the rust removal solutions in earlier posts. You might save a couple marginal links. You mentioned using PB Blaster on some frozen links. I found that it was easiest to free these up by holding the drive link in a vise and tapping on the tie straps (see Post #112) along with penetrating oil.
Philbert
Jan-Sietze
ArboristSite Operative
Interflon EM56+ works fast enough for me...
http://www.interflon.com/us/products/707/interflon-degreaser-em56-
To prevent rust I put the chains in the 'normal' engine oil.
http://www.interflon.com/us/products/707/interflon-degreaser-em56-
To prevent rust I put the chains in the 'normal' engine oil.
Thanks!
Until I looked closely at the chain for those pics I didn't realize just how bad a few of the cutters were. I know there are still a few sources for Stihl 1/2" chain, but it might be challenging finding tie straps - are they still available from Stihl?
Until I looked closely at the chain for those pics I didn't realize just how bad a few of the cutters were. I know there are still a few sources for Stihl 1/2" chain, but it might be challenging finding tie straps - are they still available from Stihl?
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