Price per cord...3/3 cord vs. 4/4 cord

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stihlrookie

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Based on this post it seems to me that you have no clue what a cord of wood is

Some will just never understand, a cord is 128 cubic feet. A cord is a cord is a cord is a cord. I don't care what size of wood you cut or whatever as long as it is 128 cubic feet it is a cord. It does not matter if it is 12", 16", 18", 24", do the math and come up with 128 cubic feet, thats a cord.
 
4seasons

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getting a bit off topic

As usual we seem to be getting a bit off topic. The original question was is it wrong to sell a cord of wood cut at 12 in lengths at a higher price than the same amount of wood cut at 16 in lengths. Both lengths come to 128 cubic feet. It is the same amount of wood at a different price. However you have to make 1/3 less cuts to make the wood 16 inch long. So it is reasonable that the labor cost should go up by 1/3.
Are you wrong for charging more for more work? Certainly not. But by the same logic you should charge less for wood cut to 24 in lengths. But the truth of the matter is we live in a free market economy. You can charge whatever you want and the customer can decide if they want to pay that price or not. Ideally you would charge a higher price for the best wood cut to a custom length. But with the Wal-Mart mentality of today's consumer "cheaper is better." You are going to burn the stuff anyway right? So if someone wants to go by wood at the cheapest place they can find, let them. Then when they get lesser quality wood than you were selling you can say I told you so. Me personally I will bend over backwards to provide the customer with what they want, but it will cost you a little bit more for my extra effort. If I was buying from you I would want you to make a reasonable profit from the time and effort that you put in to finding what I wanted. Am I totally off base by thinking that my customers would expect the same that I expect when I am the customer?
 
stihlrookie

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Back on topic

Very well then. I cut firewood to 16" length and sell for $X, that is my standard size/price. I charge extra to cut it shorter, 12" lets say, and extra to leave them longer, 24" lets say. My reason is that it is extra work for me unless it is my standard 16". The smaller pieces, it is obviously more work and has been stated again and again in this thread. As far as I am concerned, 24" is just as much work, bigger pieces, heavier, more difficulty splitting. I still split manually, no splitter for me thanks. Be up front about the price, if the customer wants to call you a crook that is their perogative.
 
Dozer Man

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Couldn't have said it better!!

Very well put guys. You definately understand my dilemma. I don't get calls for lengths less that 16" very often, but I always try to please my customers when possible. But the first time I got a call for 12" wood, and this was a couple yrs ago, the old guy knew exactly what a cord was. He was very contrary about paying me extra for my labor. And no, we did not come to terms. That's why I started this thread. Thanks for confirming my belief that my time and equipment are worth something.
 
redheadwoodshed

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Very well put guys. You definately understand my dilemma. I don't get calls for lengths less that 16" very often, but I always try to please my customers when possible. But the first time I got a call for 12" wood, and this was a couple yrs ago, the old guy knew exactly what a cord was. He was very contrary about paying me extra for my labor. And no, we did not come to terms. That's why I started this thread. Thanks for confirming my belief that my time and equipment are worth something.

Heck yea your time and equipment are worth something!I don't really have a "standard length".I have different customers who have different needs.The only ones I charge extra are the 2 who want 12" stovewood, split down to about 2 1/2" square and that's a lot of extra work.I get 100$ for 1/3 of a cord of that and I don't think I would want more than these 2 customers for that.If I had more calls for it I would have to rebuild my wedge to split 3 or 4 pieces at a time to make it pay.
 
cantoo

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Philbert, now you really opened a can of worms.
Partial Quote"If you bought gas at one station listed as $3.50 a gallon, and only got a cup (8 ounces) or a quart (32 ounces) for that amount instead of 128 ounces I doubt that you would find it fair. "
You do know that this is a worldwide forum right? You gallon is smaller than our gallon, we and lots of parts of the world sell gas by the litre. You "dollar" is different than my "dollar" and there are many many different terms for money around the world. Let's not even get started on the types of wood and heat from each species.
:potstir:
 
Philbert

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Philbert, now you really opened a can of worms. . . .You gallon is smaller than our gallon, . . . You "dollar" is different than my "dollar"

Oh heck yes! I used to live in Detroit and we would cross the border to Windsor just to save money on gas (pre-9/11, when crossing the border was easy). First, we had to convert Imperial gallons to US gallons, then work the exchange rate, to figure out which was cheaper. Some of my friends thought you guys had the better cigarettes and stronger Molson (me, I liked the Coffee Crisps - could not get them in the US in any size) as long as we were there.

But that just reinforces the issue of standard and agreed upon units. If you paid for an Imperial gallon of gas and got a US gallon, you would not be a happy camper. If I expected payment in $US and you paid me in $CAN (or loonies), I might not be happy, depending upon the exchange. I have no problem with adults agreeing on a sale - it's a problem when what one describes in words or print does not match the generally accepted expectations.

Philbert
 
mikereynolds

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We custom cut also but don't charge any extra for it. It does take extra time to do it but I fear that I would loose that customer if I tried to ask for more $$$. I just roll my eyes and get it done!
 
greendohn

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CUT A TRUCK LOAD and SELL 'EM a "RICK"!!

in this neck of the woods,,some people think a "truck" load is a "rick"...wasn't till AS, that I even heard "cord" regularly.."Cords" is what you strum on the "gee-tar",,I always thought a "rick" was 4'x8' and a full size pick up truck could hold a "rick-n-a half"...and on the rare occasion I sold /sell fire wood, I deliver a 5'x8', neatly stacked load of wood..cause my wood isn't 24" long,,give 'em an extra foot on top of the stack, to compensate for the short length,,just tryin' to be honest..Been tryin' to explain to the locals about chords and half cords and they think I'm tryin' tryin' to "fast talk" 'em..:dizzy: I'll stick with cords/fractions of cords because it's a DEFINITIVE/ KNOWN MEASUREMENT,,maybe it'll catch on around here..back to TOPIC,,if you've got more work in it and you wanna' charge more,,go for it. the customer will either take it or leave it..let market demand dictate what you do..
 
turnkey4099
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in this neck of the woods,,some people think a "truck" load is a "rick"...wasn't till AS, that I even heard "cord" regularly.."Cords" is what you strum on the "gee-tar",,I always thought a "rick" was 4'x8' and a full size pick up truck could hold a "rick-n-a half"...and on the rare occasion I sold /sell fire wood, I deliver a 5'x8', neatly stacked load of wood..cause my wood isn't 24" long,,give 'em an extra foot on top of the stack, to compensate for the short length,,just tryin' to be honest..Been tryin' to explain to the locals about chords and half cords and they think I'm tryin' tryin' to "fast talk" 'em..:dizzy: I'll stick with cords/fractions of cords because it's a DEFINITIVE/ KNOWN MEASUREMENT,,maybe it'll catch on around here..back to TOPIC,,if you've got more work in it and you wanna' charge more,,go for it. the customer will either take it or leave it..let market demand dictate what you do..

+1 If more people would do that, all those fake measures would die out...or at least get standardized so people knew how much wood was in a rick, face, pile, etc.

Harry K
 
tbow388

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No.

If you bought gas at one station listed as $3.50 a gallon, and only got a cup (8 ounces) or a quart (32 ounces) for that amount instead of 128 ounces I doubt that you would find it fair. That's what we run into with sleazy or misinformed firewood sellers, who advertise a price per 'cord', but have very creative definitions of that unit.

So if you point to a pile of wood and say, 'I want $X for that'; no problem. But if you base your price on a standard unit of measure, it is not fair to use your own definitions.

Philbert

Philbert, that is why I sale it as I do. If some one wants a more exact science of wood, I have several people near by that I send them to.

The definate point that I tried to get across was to be honest from the get go. I sale stacks of wood and not cords or fractions of. I also believe that if I can not offer something that someone wants then I should send them to a fellow woodsman that can.
 
tbow388

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Based on this post it seems to me that you have no clue what a cord of wood is

Cord of wood. 4 foot logs, 4 feet high, 8 feet long. = 2 rows, 24 inch wood 4 foot tall , 8 foot long. = 16 inch, 3 rows = 12 inch (") 4 rows. You get the idea. 4x4x8 tightly stacked. Doesn't matter north south east or west. Maybe I do know what it is. But doesn't matter because my stack is my stack!

As I replied to philbert if some one wants a more scientific stack I send them to a fellow woodsman. I make sure that my weekend burners and bonfire campers are happy and have repast customers. Even my 1/7th stickler (he evn gave my number out)
 
tbow388

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As usual we seem to be getting a bit off topic. The original question was is it wrong to sell a cord of wood cut at 12 in lengths at a higher price than the same amount of wood cut at 16 in lengths. Both lengths come to 128 cubic feet. It is the same amount of wood at a different price. However you have to make 1/3 less cuts to make the wood 16 inch long. So it is reasonable that the labor cost should go up by 1/3.
Are you wrong for charging more for more work? Certainly not. But by the same logic you should charge less for wood cut to 24 in lengths. But the truth of the matter is we live in a free market economy. You can charge whatever you want and the customer can decide if they want to pay that price or not. Ideally you would charge a higher price for the best wood cut to a custom length. But with the Wal-Mart mentality of today's consumer "cheaper is better." You are going to burn the stuff anyway right? So if someone wants to go by wood at the cheapest place they can find, let them. Then when they get lesser quality wood than you were selling you can say I told you so. Me personally I will bend over backwards to provide the customer with what they want, but it will cost you a little bit more for my extra effort. If I was buying from you I would want you to make a reasonable profit from the time and effort that you put in to finding what I wanted. Am I totally off base by thinking that my customers would expect the same that I expect when I am the customer?

Back to my original thought. I believe that if you want to charge more for your time for cutting the wood to a smaller size I think it is fine. The main thing is to be honest. It is your wood and your price.

If they do not like your product, send them send them to someone that can please them better.

My stacks whether they are 12", 16" or 24" ( which I offer them all) are still the same price of $20.00. Now if someone wants me to take my 12" stack and cut them down to 6" it is still going to be $20.00 for that 3'x3'x6" stack. The wood I get and cut is free. I am charging for my time and what little gas and oil I use.

By the way, this is a great thread and I appreciate all of the different ideas and opinions. I learn a lot from this kind of thread.
 
Chainsaw_Maniac

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One the 12" issue:

Of course you're going to charge more for 12" wood than for 16" wood. Don't give it another thought.

On the cord issue

I've found there is some discrepancy between what people say on the internet and reality. In reality, most people who sell wood for a living do not stack to measure wood. Some professional sellers actually have wooden or steel frames for this purpose; however, most sellers fill a specific truck or trailer to a certain level because they know through trial an error that it will stack up to a certain cord amount.

Many people on the internet will argue that the cord is the only way to measure wood. The concept of the cord as a universal measurement requires:

(1) That the length of the wood is evenly divisible by 48 inches; the wood must be cut to either 24”, 16” or 12”
(2) The wood is cut so perfectly that it will actually stack up to 48”. In other words, if I am cutting 16” wood and my wood varies in length from 15 to 17 inches, my stack will have air spaces on its face between rows and probably stick out to 50” and not 48”.
(3) Even if my wood is perfectly cut (meaning I used a processor or tape measured every piece), I would have to stack every cord into a frame, which most high volume sellers simply do not due.

In summary, selling by the rick or face cord is probably just as acceptable as anything. Honesty on the part of the seller is the key.

http://www.arboristsite.com/attachm...burning-equipment/203926d1319317540-skid1-jpg

First of all, guys that sell hundreds or thousands of cords per year do not have time to do what is depicted in the picture. Even the guy with the perfectly cut 16” wood who stacks every cord into a wood frame before putting it onto a truck needs to be honest. Even he could deliberately sell 5% or 10% less than he is supposed to by not putting it all on.
 
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Philbert

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Even the guy with the perfectly cut 16” wood who stacks every cord into a wood frame before putting it onto a truck needs to be honest. Even he could deliberately sell 5% or 10% less than he is supposed to by not putting it all on.

Absolutely.

*(Stop me if I have posted this before - hard to remember when we discuss the same thing many times)* - Anyone remember the movie "The Secret of Santa Vittoria " (Anthony Quinn - 1969)?

I did not see the movie, but in the book version, the residents of an Italian town 'hide' wine from the German soldiers by re-stacking the bottles so that they take up more space. The bottles are stacked directly on top of each other, and all facing the same direction, rather than being nested between the bottles on the lower row, and alternating corks and bottle bottoms. The wine cellars appear full, and they are able to stash the other bottles in a secret location.

Same thing for cord wood.

Philbert

Wine - Closely Stacked

attachment.php
 
chucker

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One the 12" issue:

Of course you're going to charge more for 12" wood than for 16" wood. Don't give it another thought.

On the cord issue

I've found there is some discrepancy between what people say on the internet and reality. In reality, most people who sell wood for a living do not stack to measure wood. Some professional sellers actually have wooden or steel frames for this purpose; however, most sellers fill a specific truck or trailer to a certain level because they know through trial an error that it will stack up to a certain cord amount.

Many people on the internet will argue that the cord is the only way to measure wood. The concept of the cord as a universal measurement requires:

(1) That the length of the wood is evenly divisible by 48 inches; the wood must be cut to either 24”, 16” or 12”
(2) The wood is cut so perfectly that it will actually stack up to 48”. In other words, if I am cutting 16” wood and my wood varies in length from 15 to 17 inches, my stack will have air spaces on its face between rows and probably stick out to 50” and not 48”.
(3) Even if my wood is perfectly cut (meaning I used a processor or tape measured every piece), I would have to stack every cord into a frame, which most high volume sellers simply do not due.

In summary, selling by the rick or face cord is probably just as acceptable as anything. Honesty on the part of the seller is the key.

http://www.arboristsite.com/attachm...burning-equipment/203926d1319317540-skid1-jpg

First of all, guys that sell hundreds or thousands of cords per year do not have time to do what is depicted in the picture. Even the guy with the perfectly cut 16” wood who stacks every cord into a wood frame before putting it onto a truck needs to be honest. Even he could deliberately sell 5% or 10% less than he is supposed to by not putting it all on.
your last paragraph pretty much sums it up! sellers doing their business with an honest 5% up or down on the full measurements of a cord is in all reality fair to each !!
 
Dozer Man

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No Cheating

With any business, remember these philosophy's...Good news travels fast, bad news travels faster! And...If you do a good job for someone they will tell a friend, if you do a bad job for someone, they will tell everybody they know!!

I try to be upfront and honest about everything. No surprises (if possible). Some people are hard to please, some people are impossible to please. You also have to realize that some people always want to "dikker". It takes all kinds. :bang: :taped: :D

It is my job as a business owner to try and find common ground with all my customers. To make all my customers feel as though they got a good, honest product at a fair, honest price. And I have to get this done without feeling like I've cheated myself in doing so. And I'm not just talking about firewood either. ;) :laugh: :cool2:
 
turnkey4099
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One the 12" issue:

Of course you're going to charge more for 12" wood than for 16" wood. Don't give it another thought.

On the cord issue

I've found there is some discrepancy between what people say on the internet and reality. In reality, most people who sell wood for a living do not stack to measure wood. Some professional sellers actually have wooden or steel frames for this purpose; however, most sellers fill a specific truck or trailer to a certain level because they know through trial an error that it will stack up to a certain cord amount.

Many people on the internet will argue that the cord is the only way to measure wood. The concept of the cord as a universal measurement requires:

(1) That the length of the wood is evenly divisible by 48 inches; the wood must be cut to either 24”, 16” or 12”

Nope: nothing in the definition requires it be stacked to 4x4x8. It can be stackec in one rick 16" X 4' x 24' and be a cord. Or 12" x 4' x 32'. It can even be cut to and odd lenght such as 37" and as long as it measures out to 128 cu ft it is a cord no matter how it is stacked.


(2) The wood is cut so perfectly that it will actually stack up to 48”. In other words, if I am cutting 16” wood and my wood varies in length from 15 to 17 inches, my stack will have air spaces on its face between rows and probably stick out to 50” and not 48”.

The definition includeds "tightly ranked (old language) which was sometimes interpreted as "tight enough a mouse can run through it but the cat can't follow. The definition of course allows variation and eveyone understands that.

(3) Even if my wood is perfectly cut (meaning I used a processor or tape measured every piece), I would have to stack every cord into a frame, which most high volume sellers simply do not due.

No again. All it requires is taht when you deliver a cord of wood if the customer stacks it, it will measure 128 cu ft. Nothing says _you_ have to stack it.

In summary, selling by the rick or face cord is probably just as acceptable as anything. Honesty on the part of the seller is the key. It is okay as long as your volumes agree with whatever the _local_ understanding of what rick or face cord is. Just please use cords or fractions on forums such as this so everyone knows what you are talking about.

http://www.arboristsite.com/attachm...burning-equipment/203926d1319317540-skid1-jpg

First of all, guys that sell hundreds or thousands of cords per year do not have time to do what is depicted in the picture. Even the guy with the perfectly cut 16” wood who stacks every cord into a wood frame before putting it onto a truck needs to be honest. Even he could deliberately sell 5% or 10% less than he is supposed to by not putting it all on.

Variations on amount of wood are expected as long as they are within limits. No two people will stack the same amount of wood into identical size piles.

Harry K
 
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J.W Younger

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You don't need to cut lenghts divisable by 48" to accurately measure cords. For instance 20" lenghts 8' or 96" in lenght by 5' or 60" high measures .52 cords. Two of these will be 1.4 cords and will allow for srinkage and still be over in case you're a sloppy stacker(like me).
To convert to cords measure LXHXL in inches and devide by 221k etc. 20x96x60=.52
hope this helps
 
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