Proper pruning vs. whacking limbs

[treeclimber165]

I'm starting to come to a disappointing conclusion after many years of climbing. The vast majority of people out there do not care about what I know, nor do they care to be told how they should have their trees trimmed. 90% only want a 'trained monkey' to climb up and whack off the limbs that they deem 'bad'. I have fought this for years, trying to explain and justify why I do not want to hack a limb off even with the roof line. This has cost me many jobs and many customers. The two companies I am climbing for now do mostly 'limb removal' rather than pruning. It is sad but true. I can shut up and remove the limbs I'm told to remove, and make a living. Or I can argue with them AND their customers on every job and be unemployed. I'm finally giving in and simply removing limbs when told to remove limbs, saving my energy and expertise for the ocassional job where I am asked to prune a tree.

I feel sad, yet strangely at peace about this newfound conclusion. I feel like I can earn a living rather than starve, and save the lectures on pruning for the few who actually want to hear it. I'm finding myself approaching jobs differently now. There are jobs for tree lovers, where I do my best work and explain why I am doing what I am doing. Then there are jobs for tree haters, where I look at the limb removal as a partial removal. They do not CARE what happens to the tree, they only want it gone (from over the roof for now, but they will want the whole tree gone soon).

Is this so awful for me to look at my career this way?

 

[Tim Gardner]

Brian,

No. It is not awful to look at your career that way. You have to make a living. I have as well as many others too have had to change their way of thinking. I don’t like being a monkey on a string either but I get some of my bills paid and eat some days too. Maybe our great grand sons and daughters will be able to enjoy proper practices and we will get to sit around and tell stories of the bad ole days.

Maybe the ISA or NAA could spend some money and do a billboard campaign on proper tree care like the state did on driving habits. We have to educate the public as well as our selves.

 

[xander9727]

165,
I feel your pain. It says in proverbs 1:22 "..fools hate knowledge". It is so true. What works for me and may be of help to others is keeping the proper perspective. As an arborist you want to do what is best for the tree. To people that care about and value trees you are an invaluable source of knowledge. To others, your the guy who is willing/able to do a job they don't want to or can't do. Unfortunately the latter seem to be the majority. There are a good number of people that are completely self centered. They want their needs met and they don't care how it impacts the rest of the world. I used to get very aggrevated by these people and try to "change" their minds. I've learned (the hard way) that people have to want to change. You can ask them if they would like your opinion and if they don't, then just give them your bid. I look at it like this, if I don't remove the branch, tree, etc. someone else will. Unless it is a gross hack job that I am going to look like a rube for doing I push my pride and opinion a side. I won't do work that is dangerous or would reflect poorly upon my company. I won't be a slave to money! However, I have made suggestions that were ignored. I then set my mind to do the best job of that I can within the constraints that have been set by the customer. I make every effort to avoid internodal cuts. I don't leave stubs or damage the branch collar. I try not to tip or top. If it looks like you can't keep the customer happy without making yourself look bad then use my plan b.
Plan b is: Bid it so you won't get it.
It's easy to double the price and avoid the head ache.
People are less likely to bad mouth you for being expensive than for telling them they are an idiot or saying you won't work for them.

 

[murphy4trees]

In thinking about all the time spent educating the customer....
It's basically the same 7-10 talks over and over
girdling roots/ root crown excavation
proper pruning practice
stress/drought/mulch
included bark/cabling
hazardous tree
fertilization (NPK does more harm than good)
right tree.. right location
getting more sun to grass/plantings/air flow around house
insects and diseases
Now this may be because it's what I know... and it makes sense that a few basic tree education pieces will come up over and over.
In any case it would be nice to put together some customer education handout sheets or a website that had links to the basic information.. Sometimes I get to talk about this stuff twice on the same estimate......."Could you tell that to my husband?"
JPS wanted to put together a FAQ link on AS... maybe we could all chip in and put together both... or maybe Tom or JPS alreeady have something like it in their files...
Any suggestions?
Thanks and God Bless All,
Daniel

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I still run into this with some of my clients. I'm told to doe X, I'll say, "Ya know, I think it would be better for the tree if I did Y. I cna do X but it is not needed for what you want and the way the tree is growing. and this is why I think that."

I don't ague much anny more, but I will still make the suggestions for beter work, sometime in front of the homeowner. I win a few now and then.

 

[TREETX]

It is a people business just as much as it is a tree business.

 

[treeclimber165]

WOW!

I was half expecting to get blasted for this thread. It certainly appears that all of you have experienced the same thing. I guess I'm just a slow learner when it comes to dealing with other people. I've usually put the trees first, without enough regard to the opinions of the person paying the bill. I guess I'm much more likely to be heard if I save my lectures for those who care to hear them instead of alienating bosses, customers and fellow employees.

I got to play in a couple beautiful live oaks today. Except for some elevation years ago, they have never been trimmed. The guy I was climbing for simply said "Do what you think on these". I spent 4½ hours on those two trees and used less than ½ tank of gas in my Echo. They came out really nice, the focal point of the whole property. I keep getting reminded (as I pop 3 Advil) that 'limb removal' is a lot easier on my body, but I truly enjoy jobs like today.

 

[Eric E.]

Every time this topic (hack the tree, take the $) comes up I think of the quote by Shigo.

"a drug pusher gives a customer what he wants. A professional medical doctor gives customers what they need."

It doesn't seem to be a challenge for me. I'm a Professional arborist, not a tree cutter. Act the part and you should get different results. When a client says I need "this" done I tell them how it can be done correctly. I try to meet their needs through proper techniques. If they insist on a hack job then I'll try again to explain it another way. If they still insist on hacking I tell them that I don't do improper work, thank them, and leave. There is more work than I can do so I don't do sub standard work.

As for customer info handouts use the ISA ones, $15/100 = .15 cents each. If thats too much of a cost you can print them off the website.

 

[Tim Gardner]

Re: WOW!

Originally posted by treeclimber165
I keep getting reminded (as I pop 3 Advil) that 'limb removal' is a lot easier on my body, but I truly enjoy jobs like today.

I find that the Advil® Liqui-Gels® work the best. I can remember the days that I could hand load blocks of wood all day in august and still go out and party that night. Those days are gone now. But I hope to be climbing in my sixties.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Brian, if you keep on doing good work whenever you can, and keep selling your self and your ideology (softly) you will fond the better companies that share these values. And work for them more and the wood cutters less.

Someday in the not to distant future you'll be able to take wednesdays off on a regular basis.

 

[NeTree]

I see that alot, especially in the more rural areas I work. People generally only call when the tree is dead or dying, and then they don't want to pay much for the work. They think a hundred bucks is a fair price for a 6 foot DBH oak 12 inches from the house. And pruning? To them that's taking everything on the side of the tree toward the house/barn/shed/garage. I gave up long ago. My family's gotta eat. That's why I end up doing 90 percent removals. But I do get the 10 percent that actually believe in taking CARE of their trees, and I feel good about that. I'll never forget the day though that I got a call for a removal, a BEAUTIFUL red maple, about 35 feet tall. Why? Because the man didn't like raking leaves. That one made me mad. REAL mad. I mean I saw FUC*ING stars. That job I turned down. Like the 50 trees on the neighbors' property 30 feet away weren't going to put just a FEW leaves on his lawn anyways!

 

[Stumper]

I probably "miss" 1 job out of 200 bids because I don't want to do a hack job. Most people listen when I explain that there is a better way to get the results they seek. I'm sure that it is much harder in your situation Bryan. It makes the contracter look bad that HE didn't explain proper care to the customer.

Xander, I understand your refusal to top but I was surprised by your inclusion of "tipping". Perhaps we use that term in different ways. When I say 'tip' I mean one of two things. Either cutting the terminal portion of a limb back to a strong lateral branch(thus reducing height, spread or esp. weight load) or cutting back twigs to a lateral bud (removing the apical bud to encourage thickening of laterals/slow a shoot's reach for the sky. The latter usually occurs on shrubs or on fruit trees that have beeen 'topped'. Are we speaking the same language?

 

[xander9727]

Stumper,
When I refer to tipping I'm talking about making cuts that will just clear an obstruction. These are usually internodal cuts that are on the main branch. The customer feels that the tree would look bare if you took the whole branch. Due to the location of the obstruction it isn't possible to make a proper cut, the whole branch must be removed. I try and explain that if I just "trim it back to there" it will promote sprouting and/or cause the branch to die/harm the tree. To me cutting back to a strong lateral branch or cutting twigs to a lateral buds is pruning. Cutting what is convient regardless or the trees anotomy is tipping/hacking/topping/being a bad tree guy .

 

[Stumper]

Ahhhhh....... understood. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Per ANSI A300 an internadal cut would fall under heading, you are heading the limb back to a stub to promote advanticouse budding. Timing is critical with this. I find it works better with dormant owrk, and worst just after first flush when local reserves are depleated.

There is a symantics argument in the industry that trimming should be cutting that is not in the trees best interest where pruning is done within the growth patterns of the plant.

 

[treeguy347]

I find the people that want good work, and actually respect the fact that you are the professional are the best ones to work for. The ones that want a hack job belong with the hacks.

 

[Stumper]

JPS, I probably should have added "aka: heading definition 1 A300"when talking about 'tipping'. Semantics are really a problem in our field. The terminology changes from area to area and individual to individual! A300 helps in giving us some common language but sometimes I fail to use it. part of the probblem is the abuse of good terms by the general public due to misinformation disseminated by so called tree professionals. When talking to the customer I am careful to explain what types of cuts will be made and for what purpose. My greatest difficulty is in talking to other pros! We start using verbal shorthand and wind up talking past one another. My personal feeling about "trimming vs.pruning" is that its hopeless hairsplitting. The customers won't get it so lots of pros won't bother.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

The only thing I see trim/prune good for is in comunicating to other pro's; you say trim if the structural clearance is more important, prune if tree health is more important.

You give the forman the WO that sais trim 10 ft away from roof, or prune for 4 years of roof clearance and they would know what you want.