Race Chain News

[Dennis Cahoon]

"I've spent over 40 hours often on racing chains. I used to completely dismantle a chain. Then with a surface grinder that I made, I would remove .020" from the inside surface of the tooth. That is the flat side where hole for the rivets are. The purpose being to narrow the kerf for a total of .040". The gain was so minimal for the time expended, that I felt it wasn't justified. I then tried another approach and made an adjustable grinder that would remove the chrome and change the angle of the outside of the tooth. I found this to be much easier and accomplished a better end result." This was posted by Art Martin on 9-7-02.

Now for all you race chain builders out there, this style of making race chain might not of worked or been to labor intense for Art Martin, but this is how the fastest race chain is made and for quite a long time now.

I just saw this thread and post and thought I should bring this post to you race chain builders attention. This is not an attack on Art, but why would the best chain builders in the world use this technique if it did not work? If your making race chain and don't try the inside thinning of a chain, you'll never know for sure. The race chains that I have seen that ran fast were all made this way. Dennis

 

[rupedoggy]

Dennis, that is a good post. You state a position. Expand on a theme and present your opinion in a concise and logical way. It shows good balance and thought. We can read and make our opinions based on point and counter point. That is what Arboristsite is all about. Mike

 

[glens]

Hi Dennis.

I remember reading through that thread, and even had a somewhat controversial part in it later on.  I don't recall having the impression from his original post that Art said it was not a good way to do it, but rather that he'd felt similar gains over stock configuration could be more easily obtained in another manner.  It might not have worked for Art as well as it does for others, granted.  I can see where it could be too labor intensive.

Do you recall if Art stated when in his career it was that he initially tried this?  Is it possible he was one of the early ones?  Do the current elite race chain builders use just that method to reduce kerf or do they combine both of the methods Art described?  Just wondering; that's all.

Glen

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Dennis, are all the other racers using Carlton chain?
Because that's a variable that might throw a monkey wrench in the works.
See Art mentioned that the chain he was working on had a drive link that measured .050 at the top, where most other chain, even those with .050 drivers, measured .063 at the point where the cutters attached. So perhaps starting out .013 thinner, made this step less important.
Either way, he totally explained the theory and gave his reasoning behind skiping it. I'd like to hear more on your reasoning, not just. "the best chain builders in the world use this technique". Although intereting, it doesn't explain why or how you think it's needed.
We ASers want technical stuff.

 

[jokers]

Hey Dennis,

That was a good post `cause you actually shared something with us, LOL. Thanks and looking forward to more.

I enjoyed reading Art`s perspectives on race chain prep and admire that he was willing to share his way of doing things. I also realize that there are many ways to skin a cat and look forward to others offering their input. I have no aspirations of becoming a race chain maker but find it interesting none the less.

For the record, it sounds as if Crofter is making a pretty good chain based on Art`s methods. It`ll be interesting to see what he can come up with given some different techniques.

Russ

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

This is an interesting topic.
You all think there is a point of diminishing returns when it comes to narrowing the kerf?
The real cutting is done at the side plates, so narrowing the kerf is really about having less chips to clear, not cutting less. If you narrow the kerf, you lessen the amount of chips, but at the same time you narrow the chip channel.
Another consideration is that not all the chips are thrown out by the chain, a percentage go past the chain and pile up in the area along the bar.
Speaking of Crofter, now that he has hard earned knowledge, will he still be willing to share, or will he be like Dennis?

 

[glens]

Mike,

Frank has enlisted me as his agent in this matter.  We're currently setting up a PayPal account and he'll offer his advice at the price of ½¢ per consonant, ¾&cent per vowel.  Price breaks will be at 2, 4, and 6 paragraphs.  No photographs; paparazzi will be shot on sight.

Glen

 

[Dennis Cahoon]

There are people making race chain with Oregon and Carlton. I have a chain made with Stihl teeth on Oregon frame. It cut good, not great. Tom Fales likes the Oregon to work with better than the Carlton. He feels the chrome is better and likes the point of the tooth better, making it easier to file. He also uses Carlton and it cuts just as fast, but a little harder to work with. Myself, I use Carlton, and then Ed Herd I've heard uses Oregon, so I don't think it's a big factor.
As far as grinding the sides of the cutters, some people do and some don't, I don't. So that means I don't change the angle either. What I grind off the inside of the tooth varys with the width of the bar, and what kind of wood your going to cut. Have you heard thin to win before? Well you didn't hear that from me. If your chain sticks in the wood because it's to thin, what are you going to do then. You either throw your chain away or surface grind your bar.
The bottom line is how well you use a file and how well you stone the teeth. Sure thinning is a must, but the filing and stoning is the big factor. Dennis

 

[Marky Mark]

When I get home I will post a few picures of NeedleNits chains. Since I have there chains I guess I can make a statement about them. They work.

But I will say this the fastest chain so far is my .404 from Dennis. That's for the larger saws. Since I will be getting my TomFales 2100 in the next week or so I will take some times of the 3/8ths compared to the .404.

 

[Dennis Cahoon]

If you think thinning the inside and riviting the chain together takes along time, try and make a full house chain. Putting a tooth on every driver takes forever, and then you have to do all the other good stuff. Tons of time and work. My result, and others that I know who have done this, didn't make the full house run any faster, except Art supposedly.
If you guys are building race chain, which I know not very many of your are. Most of you just want to talk about it, try thinning some teeth between .010 and .020 and see what works best for you. Sorry Maas, I didn't give you the prefect number, but at least I gave you more to work with than Art did. Besides that you need to find what works best for you. There is no one that has the prefect numbers. If there was, he would win everytime. I just look for consistency. I feel Art was trying to go to thin, especially if he was using a driver that was .050 from top to bottom. Another thought is what he changed his tooth angle to and how much chrome he got rid of. It make a difference. Dennis

 

[choppermom]

There is no one that has the prefect numbers. If there was, he would win everytime. I just look for consistency.

Hello Cahoon

Haven't you been fairly consistent at winning with certain chains????? Come on now don't be shy.........lol

Leslie Fales

 

[ehp]

Yes Dennis i use oregon chain most of the times , the reason is i can get it the easiest here, carlton chain can be got here but not that easy, and i am not that fond of stihl chain , i have my reason's .
What i have found on making a chain for a saw is and this is what i do so if you donot agree , you are more likely right
i make a chain to fit the saw and the wood so if a make a chain for a 0-5cu pipe saw to cut 12 inch popular , that chain will not work as good on a 3120 pipe saw as a chain that i would make for a 3120 , 2 totally different power bands and chain speed
i use more angle on the small mods than the big mods plus alot different rackers and as far as thinning , like i said with the stock chassic rule i have not spent that much time on it but i am going to spend more because i feel that is one place i can gain , and i donot have to put any more pressure on the motor to go faster at shows that i am aloud to run it

 

[royb]

EHP why will one chain that cuts good on your smaller motor not work with you bigger one ??? hey i think i must be doing the chain thing wrong? i use one chain for all motor's. But hey iam not the man soo maybe i need to call theman and find out how to doit right ..
SOOOOO who is the chain man on this site?? RoyB

 

[ehp]

Royb we all knowyou are the man.
the reason is with the small mod i have only so much torque to use compared to chain speed.
the 3120 and a small mod have very close chain speed and i know the 3120 would run alot bigger gear but a 12 tooth gear works the best for us plus with the 3120 running a muffler and pipe it is better to use this gear
plus with the different types of wood you have to cut , what works in one wood here doesnot work in others,
that 3120 in the video is running a 42 degree top plate and a .038 racker, it seems to cut to mebut i am not going to say it would not cut better with one of your chains that is for sure and most likely it would, like i said this is my way and if you donot agree most likely you are right, it's the cold it does something to our brain up here

 

[Marky Mark]

I know there's alot that goes into these race chains. With this new 404 I have I would have to take a guess and say Dennis spent about 80 hours on this chain. He also spent a little extra since he gave me an extra link. I would put it on my keychain but it is way to sharp. Boys these chains are like Razors way beyond the sharpness of the 90 second tickle.

The funny thing is the 404 cuts the fastest of all the race chains I have.Right now, It must be that new cutter style. I know that chain will be tops in the 385. If it's running strong in the 357 bigger can only be better.

Oh and another thing Dans meet is in 3 weeks If you guys want to look at the chains Well You can't. I had to sighn a contract with the Devil's helpers.

Regards,
Devil's Advocate

 

[rmihalek]

Seems to me that looking at a chain won't get people too far anyway. I think the differences must be too subtle to tell with the naked eye. Who could tell the difference between, say, a 42 degree top plate angle and a 40 degree angle? Racker height, side plate angles, etc. All too subtle. It's like looking at the Mona Lisa. Who's going to go out and paint one just like it after looking at it.

 

[Dennis Cahoon]

Looking at a chain and building one are 2 different things. Try building one and see how it cuts. Then build another and see if you can make it cut better. Then ask yourself do I want to build a third one. I don't know how many chains the Man has built but many, and filed many many more. What he has learned has come from total experience, or the hard way. I can still remember him and myself using his chains, trying to beat Hollis Baughman. It took years, and it took many chains with all kinds of ideas and changes. Nobody has been so focused and wanted to make a chain cut as the Man. But to be honest his filing is what makes his chains cut so well. Just about anybody can thin a chain and adjust the rakers, but filing it at a consistent and even angle with an edge that cuts is an art. Dennis

 

[ehp]

Dennis you want to see Art just listen , when jesus crist was a cowboy i started racing at our local shows , i had a 2100 from south america, i cannot remember what it was called but it cut like hell , this thing had more compression than any saw i have ever seen , you had to replace the dogs on the flywheel 2 or 3 times a year, well the husky dealer said i needed to use a smaller chain and not knowing jack sh#t about tooth height back then we put a 3/8 low pro on the saw, now it was a chisel type of chain and we won the shows but boy did that chains stretch, you made a cut , you tighten the chain, you made a cut ,you tighten the chain, and after 6 or 8 cuts you threw the chain away, like i said i didnot know much and was taking Tony's word that this was the fastest but now we know that it was not even close to being the fastest, god i wished i still had that 2100 , i bought 4 more after that one , they all ran nice but not the same , so i even tried to get just the piston and jug but could not get them either like that 2100

 

[Gypo Logger]

Hi Ed, so does this mean you are still chasing parked cars?
Are there really that many parked cars in Eagle Lake, I don't suppose so.
John, the Timber Tramp

 

[ehp]

You like that Gypo
but can you help me , what do i do once i catch one