Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
This transferred over from the Free Firewood thread
rmikhalek said:
Recycling Katrina and Rita
- Thread starter Tree Machine
- Start date
Help Support Arborist Forum:
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
I say "Full steam ahead"
rmihalek, I want to thank you for offering up this fundamental concept:
All we have to do is create it, or pull together the existing sources into a common vision. You spoke the vision. You said it. Now we do it. That starts with the group of us, here and now. We create it. We have the ability to do this. We have the direct 'ins' with the manufacturers than any other tree-related occupation, we have the connections. There is no other professional group more highly suited to fuel a massive tree reclamation project. I believe that.
So are you IN or you OUT?.........
(everybody....?)
OK, by silence I take that to mean you're IN. OK, let's get to work! I'll take the first stab at this, by describing the logistics based on the companies we could involve. We can't do this without industry kingpins and local support. It's communication, gentlemen, and we have cell phones and the internet. Advantage, us.
In the next post, I will describe who I see involved, and how I see this happening. What we're doing here, in essence, is throwing a big pile of clay on the table. We all will shape it from here, OK? We are team in seeing this thing through, and I think we can enact and get a plan in motion in 24 hours, where our setup can be within 3 days, to a week. Don't lose focus of how easy this can be, Men and Women; it is all communication up until the time we start moving wood to the central staging areas. Communication. We have a large voice here, and it's a GOOD IDEA, as well as being the right thing.
An unprecedented scale of recycling trees, but timing is everything and the longer we wait, the more trees are going to hit the landfill. We're already two weeks behind. I'm counting on that the key industries are in motion toward doing something already. We need to pull together all the sources so our result is greater than the sum of the parts. This is The Great Treeguy Recycling Experiment, an opportunity to create so many win-wins and benefits to the environment, people and economy that I don't see a way it can fail. I truly feel this is our duty and responsibility and I'll gladly spearhead the effort and offer my 100% contribution to seeing it through.
rmihalek, I want to thank you for offering up this fundamental concept:
Mihalek, I'm sure there are thousands more of us who are thinking the same line. I'm SURE OF IT. I'm so certain of this that I feel all we need to do is to offer up a plan, enroll the companies with the gear, empower the locals to be able to do it with our collective help and support and THE PROJECT WILL WORK.Mikhalek said:
All we have to do is create it, or pull together the existing sources into a common vision. You spoke the vision. You said it. Now we do it. That starts with the group of us, here and now. We create it. We have the ability to do this. We have the direct 'ins' with the manufacturers than any other tree-related occupation, we have the connections. There is no other professional group more highly suited to fuel a massive tree reclamation project. I believe that.
So are you IN or you OUT?.........
(everybody....?)
OK, by silence I take that to mean you're IN. OK, let's get to work! I'll take the first stab at this, by describing the logistics based on the companies we could involve. We can't do this without industry kingpins and local support. It's communication, gentlemen, and we have cell phones and the internet. Advantage, us.
In the next post, I will describe who I see involved, and how I see this happening. What we're doing here, in essence, is throwing a big pile of clay on the table. We all will shape it from here, OK? We are team in seeing this thing through, and I think we can enact and get a plan in motion in 24 hours, where our setup can be within 3 days, to a week. Don't lose focus of how easy this can be, Men and Women; it is all communication up until the time we start moving wood to the central staging areas. Communication. We have a large voice here, and it's a GOOD IDEA, as well as being the right thing.
An unprecedented scale of recycling trees, but timing is everything and the longer we wait, the more trees are going to hit the landfill. We're already two weeks behind. I'm counting on that the key industries are in motion toward doing something already. We need to pull together all the sources so our result is greater than the sum of the parts. This is The Great Treeguy Recycling Experiment, an opportunity to create so many win-wins and benefits to the environment, people and economy that I don't see a way it can fail. I truly feel this is our duty and responsibility and I'll gladly spearhead the effort and offer my 100% contribution to seeing it through.
Last edited:
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
(this in from our friend, Trinity)
"Mississippi alone, has over 48 million tons of timber on
the ground, the price of timber ( logs ) has dropped from $65 a ton to
$45 a ton, in the short term this may cause a drop in price for lumber,
but the hurricane has prematurely thinned the timber stands and they say
it will take 5 to 7 years to recover, so after an initial drop in price,
it will probably go through the roof."
"Mississippi alone, has over 48 million tons of timber on
the ground, the price of timber ( logs ) has dropped from $65 a ton to
$45 a ton, in the short term this may cause a drop in price for lumber,
but the hurricane has prematurely thinned the timber stands and they say
it will take 5 to 7 years to recover, so after an initial drop in price,
it will probably go through the roof."
The final part of my previous post deserves a second visit, and perhaps comments from people in the firewood business up here in the northern states. Do we want to truck 1000's of cords of logs to each of the 20 or so states along the northern part of the country and saturate the firewood market with free firewood. I don't know how many of our northern brothers depend on income from firewood sales to pay the bills. I certainly wouldn't want to screw them out of essential income by overwhelming their markets.
That being said, my GUESS is that the majority of wood sales are to people who want a cord delivered and stacked and burn wood for the aesthetics; they are not going to go buck up logs themselves. So, the commercial firewood guys won't automatically lose all their customers.
The way I see any sort of wood salvage operation happening is having one or two central locations in each state that wants to accept the logs and then homeowners with trucks and saws can cut wood at this site for their own personal use. I don't know if it would work to allow commercial firewood guys to go to the sites and clear it out by working 24/7 with big trucks and processors. Maybe the rules of who can take the wood can be handled state by state. Optimally, there'd be so much wood that anyone could take it, whether they take 1 cord or 1000. If they want to resell it, great.
Then the issue is determining how the haulers will get paid. Does anyone know who we can contact at FEMA (or any agency) that will work with us to determine how this can happen? I'll try to contact FEMA to see what happens.
A few things to ponder:
Which states will accept the wood? Where will it go within each state? Does the wood have any disease that will damage the northern forests? Would the individual states allow untrained homeowners to run chainsaws on state property? Can anyone say "liability waiver?"
That being said, my GUESS is that the majority of wood sales are to people who want a cord delivered and stacked and burn wood for the aesthetics; they are not going to go buck up logs themselves. So, the commercial firewood guys won't automatically lose all their customers.
The way I see any sort of wood salvage operation happening is having one or two central locations in each state that wants to accept the logs and then homeowners with trucks and saws can cut wood at this site for their own personal use. I don't know if it would work to allow commercial firewood guys to go to the sites and clear it out by working 24/7 with big trucks and processors. Maybe the rules of who can take the wood can be handled state by state. Optimally, there'd be so much wood that anyone could take it, whether they take 1 cord or 1000. If they want to resell it, great.
Then the issue is determining how the haulers will get paid. Does anyone know who we can contact at FEMA (or any agency) that will work with us to determine how this can happen? I'll try to contact FEMA to see what happens.
A few things to ponder:
Which states will accept the wood? Where will it go within each state? Does the wood have any disease that will damage the northern forests? Would the individual states allow untrained homeowners to run chainsaws on state property? Can anyone say "liability waiver?"
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
I made a phone call today, http://www.woodmizer.com
Trinity Honoria
Senior Member
rmihalek said:
may i make a suggestion??? there are many non-profits who help lower income people with heating in the winter-- including wood. i think that would be a good non-competitive market to find... however, then the truckers are donating free time/fuel to get it to the various places...
possible resources: center of denominations in states (Southern Baptist Associations in each state); power companies in each state know who they refer the people who can't pay their bills-- in turn those non-profits know how many people they serve who burn wood... these organizations would be responsible to provide storage area, plus local volunteers to assist at delivery time...
just an idea...
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
rmihalek said:
Another golden nugget right there, everything else you wrote is you getting caught up in the mechanism. Stay focussed for the moment, and help me out. There are a kazillion ways to put out there what COULD go wrong and what MIGHT happen, but we can drive ourself nuts with that. Let's assume we will deal with all issues and obstacles with responsibility and within the guidelines of all local and state laws and regulations.
That being said, let's get back to Reclaiming and Recycling Two Hurricanes
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Yes you may.Trinity said:
Ahh, perfect. The only thing we need to do is eliminate the truckers.Trin said:
Crazy you say? We need to simplify. We need to boil it down and keep it as uncomplicated at it's CORE as possible. Remember, recovering, reclaiming and recycling TWO monster hurricanes is a HUGE task, far beyond what any of us has likely ever done.
What we need to do is not approach this with the baggage of our normal ways of doing things. This is so much bigger than any of us have ever done. It's an animal all of it's own, and it already has a natural direction the way we're going.
We need to step up as a profession and see that the environment benefits, the local people benefit and our alliance with industry benefit while we get in there and do the work that we so expertly know how to do. THIS is the vision. We work with trees and we're the group to come up with something big, now let's think.
Tree Machine said:
There ya go, TM.
Two good reasonsFirst, lumber, gets shipped coast to coast everyday, so while hauling firewood isn't economical, lumber is.
or
Second, staying with the lumber thought, can't these trees make lumber for the rebuild of the areas in which they fell? No or minimal trucking, relatively "cheap" stumpage and logging costs.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Come on, come on......
Thor's Hammer
ArboristSite Guru
Great enthusiasm Guys, but your thinking to small. Think sideways...
this requires massive investment, but the potential is huge. The easiest way of recovering ALL the woody material, is to grind it up with horizontal grinders. that way, any contaminates like metal and stones can be separated.also, think beyond just the tree waste. Arent most of your buildings in the US made of wood? shovel all them through the grinders too, they have technology to separate the crap out.
Now, with hundreds of grinders going flat out, we are talking millions of tonnes of wood mulch...
Now ship in several modular biomass plants. these can be equiped for producing high pressure steam for the Food / Brewing / refridgiation industry. the can be sited wherever there is demand. On the return steam curcuit, you power turbines to generate electricity - And green power fetches premium rates on the grid...
NO energy or biomass is wasted. all is used. the resulting wood ash can be used as a fertilizer for agriculture. This way everyones a winner, and NOTHING goes to waste. It would also kick start a green power industry, that would continue to use all low grade wood waste indefinatly. Imagine having a place to dump all the chips you can make! and getting $10 a tonne back on them!
Think this is pie in the sky? most of scandinavia gains its heat and energy this way.
Heres a link to the company that builds the Modular mobile power stations. http://www.vanderweyenergy.com/
Thank you.
this requires massive investment, but the potential is huge. The easiest way of recovering ALL the woody material, is to grind it up with horizontal grinders. that way, any contaminates like metal and stones can be separated.also, think beyond just the tree waste. Arent most of your buildings in the US made of wood? shovel all them through the grinders too, they have technology to separate the crap out.
Now, with hundreds of grinders going flat out, we are talking millions of tonnes of wood mulch...
Now ship in several modular biomass plants. these can be equiped for producing high pressure steam for the Food / Brewing / refridgiation industry. the can be sited wherever there is demand. On the return steam curcuit, you power turbines to generate electricity - And green power fetches premium rates on the grid...
NO energy or biomass is wasted. all is used. the resulting wood ash can be used as a fertilizer for agriculture. This way everyones a winner, and NOTHING goes to waste. It would also kick start a green power industry, that would continue to use all low grade wood waste indefinatly. Imagine having a place to dump all the chips you can make! and getting $10 a tonne back on them!
Think this is pie in the sky? most of scandinavia gains its heat and energy this way.
Heres a link to the company that builds the Modular mobile power stations. http://www.vanderweyenergy.com/
Thank you.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
There ya go, Thor. Of the infinite tonnages of wood waste, brush and debris, you are 100% on. That's the way to do it, with lots of tub grinders to make mulch. That's the way it's being done, only not on any massive scale at this time. There are mills about, but there is no central information source, that's what we need to offer. An info hub. I could do it at treeguy.info, but let's do it here.
If we stay focussed on the loggage, keeping it boiled down and simplified we have lumber and firewood. Don't confuse perspective with magnitude. We are recycling tree trunks, in an attempt to reclaim, reuse, and recycle the big wood while we restore the trees.
If we connect with the right industry sources, that 'huge investment' is broken up amongst parts (industry sponsors). It may just be that they want to get their machinery in there and just need some guidance. The guidance would be us, who are down there and up here creating the picture of what this recycling endeavor would look like. Processing a million tons or so of downed trees. It's a good Fall/Winter project.
Communication. This thread is the place to do it. If we can promote this thread as the central information hub, and do all our business from here, transparent and viewablewe're all on the same page.
I can envision the possibilities. I can envision recycling Katrina and Rita.
If we stay focussed on the loggage, keeping it boiled down and simplified we have lumber and firewood. Don't confuse perspective with magnitude. We are recycling tree trunks, in an attempt to reclaim, reuse, and recycle the big wood while we restore the trees.
If we connect with the right industry sources, that 'huge investment' is broken up amongst parts (industry sponsors). It may just be that they want to get their machinery in there and just need some guidance. The guidance would be us, who are down there and up here creating the picture of what this recycling endeavor would look like. Processing a million tons or so of downed trees. It's a good Fall/Winter project.
Communication. This thread is the place to do it. If we can promote this thread as the central information hub, and do all our business from here, transparent and viewablewe're all on the same page.
I can envision the possibilities. I can envision recycling Katrina and Rita.
dtw902
ArboristSite Operative
Bring in the grinders wind row the grindings turn the wind rows every now and then. In 3 years or less you will have compost to sell, replace eroded out areas, ect. Plus you can grind twice and sell mulch right away that will be needed for the new tree's being planted that died from being flooded out. You can get set up anyway you want just like grinding asphalt and reusing it. But this would be the smart thing to do, once politics get involved who knows what will happen.
I just got back from Miss late last week after 2 good weeks of storm work (work here was backing up too much). I thought we had pines here in N FL, but that is the "pine belt" and they have them thick!!! GP has a large stud mill mill there and there were many other lumber yards. There is soo much pine at curbside right now and such damage to the actual planted fields that I would expect this to hurt them for some time.
All these good thought of how to recycle are just that, when you see the volume you'd know it just needs to go away. I think incinerators are really the best option. A properly engineered incinerator is not harmful to the enviroment does not produce smoke, and is a fast and effecient way to get rid of the debris. I read in the local papaer how the city council thought it a great idea to do fire wood and have the local prison boys do the clean up.......yeah right, that is STUPID thinking and will NEVER work. Not a whole lot of valuable hardwood at all, just tons and tons and tons of pine DEBRIS --not just pretty logs cut to the perfect length.
Greg
All these good thought of how to recycle are just that, when you see the volume you'd know it just needs to go away. I think incinerators are really the best option. A properly engineered incinerator is not harmful to the enviroment does not produce smoke, and is a fast and effecient way to get rid of the debris. I read in the local papaer how the city council thought it a great idea to do fire wood and have the local prison boys do the clean up.......yeah right, that is STUPID thinking and will NEVER work. Not a whole lot of valuable hardwood at all, just tons and tons and tons of pine DEBRIS --not just pretty logs cut to the perfect length.
Greg
texasnative
ArboristSite Operative
TH's idea is good for sure. There is alot of energy stored in all of that wood. Nothing should go to waste. Modular biomass plants...sounds great, but how long would it take to set up the infrastructure? Could enough heat be generated by the decomposition of the would waste to rotate a turbine that would turn a generator? I'm always thinking of ways to generate electricity. A structure (or many structures) could be built that would house a large stockpile of woodchips, with the purpose of maintaing the heat that is produced. The building would include a turbine (or turbines) that rotate as the heat escapes through it, which in turn would rotate a generator. The pile of chips can sit and begin composting while the structure(s) are being designed and built.
Of course all of the wood that could be salvaged for lumber should be. I'm going to look at a portable mill tommorow.
Of course all of the wood that could be salvaged for lumber should be. I'm going to look at a portable mill tommorow.
texasnative
ArboristSite Operative
If enough heat could not be produced from the decomposition of the would pile (I think that there would be), then turbines could be coupled to incinerators.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
That where I come back to firewood and saw logs. See, this is the stuff we do, or at least it is an expression of us. I think the world would look to us to help solve the problem. Recovering, reclaiming and recycling TWO monster hurricanes (if I may repeat what I already said) is a HUGE task, far beyond what any of us has likely ever done.
How we go about doing it will say a lot about us. I'm saying we step up and make a difference. We already are. I'm very confident in doing this because I have all of you on the same page. If we speak together in promoting the relamation of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, then our voice will be heard, and we'll make a difference; a positive one for the environment, the economy, the people and the communities. If we want it, and society wants it, then it will become. Our collective endorsement is really what is needed.
We have 18 hours before Rita strikes land. Let's solve the problem.
How we go about doing it will say a lot about us. I'm saying we step up and make a difference. We already are. I'm very confident in doing this because I have all of you on the same page. If we speak together in promoting the relamation of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, then our voice will be heard, and we'll make a difference; a positive one for the environment, the economy, the people and the communities. If we want it, and society wants it, then it will become. Our collective endorsement is really what is needed.
We have 18 hours before Rita strikes land. Let's solve the problem.
Thor's Hammer
ArboristSite Guru
You don't compost the wood, you burn it. These modular plants will generate steam turbine pressure burning old waste soggy cardboard, never mind pine waste, which has a huge calorific value..
This is notconjecture, this is fact. In other parts of the globe, it happens all the time.
A modularised powerplant can be up and running in 60 days. enough time to start stockpiling fuel. Firewood takes far to long to process, and will not solve the problem of all the rootballs and brush. A biomass plant will take everything, right down to the Tubground roots.
Siting your powerplants in the storm ravaged areas solves the long haul trucking costs.
Whoever had the cash to set up a powerplant would be sat in clover for several years as the fuel source would be free.
This is notconjecture, this is fact. In other parts of the globe, it happens all the time.
A modularised powerplant can be up and running in 60 days. enough time to start stockpiling fuel. Firewood takes far to long to process, and will not solve the problem of all the rootballs and brush. A biomass plant will take everything, right down to the Tubground roots.
Siting your powerplants in the storm ravaged areas solves the long haul trucking costs.
Whoever had the cash to set up a powerplant would be sat in clover for several years as the fuel source would be free.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Hard to argue that. Thor. The 'bulk' of is has to go somewhere. From the standpoint of OUR connections, OUR industry and what WE can do, none of us are from the mobile power plant industry. Hopefully someone who's in that industry will be wrestling that beast.
We cut trees. We can move them, or create the means for them to be moved. Trust me, there are already stacks of thousands of tree trunks already SOMEWHERE. I see what's happening NOW as the staging era where logs are put somewhere for later processing, as the actual processing will take place as a process, over time. Valuable wood is accumulating. Our job may be in diverting premium logs from a landfill destiny to a more appropriate use. Let's not get stuck in trying to 'do it all'. Let's stick with doing what we do, what we're good at, which is hands-on with the trees at the earliest level- removal and recovery.
I'm not even proposing we do the actual processing ourselves. What's important here, more than anything, is our SUPPORT for the project, making this project 'our baby'. We would forge the idea into reality, work the plan for 4 months and bring the story to the world. This is an important story, you guys, and as ANYBODY can perceive, tossing primo logs into a landfill is irresponsible. If it goes the landfill way, I feel we may be partly to blame for that 'lack of action'. We ARE the industry in the midst of it all, the ultimate outcome being determined in large part by us, here and now. Do we do something, or do we not do something?
This is a normal tree cleanup, scaled up a couple million-fold. The logistics change, but the core work is the same, our hands and our saws. We can easily have a say-so in where those logs go and how they're processed, we just need to ALIGN, take a firm stand for the environment and create win-wins for the people, the communities, the industry alliances and the economy.
It's just communication at this point, ideas in our head, but if we put wings on those ideas, they will fly.
I'll fight to keep it simple, and cost effective. I have the feeling we will have the blessing of local officials because clearly, this is an important project. As for the enrollment of the companies, we need to show the benefit of involvement to them. If they already want in (and why shouldn't they?) we give them an outlet. Our abilities as a group here will automatically promote and endorse the project, nurture it through it's process and stay with it for the duration.
I'm committed. Recycling and helping the planet is a core passion of mine. So is wood. So are trees. And I'm particularly fond of people. I will donate and dedicate my time for the next 4 months to doing this.
4 months is a blip in time, but we can make a big difference. It starts somewhere. It starts here. I am more than happy to call companies and coordinate the effort, and I'm asking nothing of any particular one of you except to support the idea. Do WE want it? Individual involvement may come later, as to how it fits with you, but as far as the launching of the idea, we collectively, as a group, just need to nod our heads forward in support of it.
We cut trees. We can move them, or create the means for them to be moved. Trust me, there are already stacks of thousands of tree trunks already SOMEWHERE. I see what's happening NOW as the staging era where logs are put somewhere for later processing, as the actual processing will take place as a process, over time. Valuable wood is accumulating. Our job may be in diverting premium logs from a landfill destiny to a more appropriate use. Let's not get stuck in trying to 'do it all'. Let's stick with doing what we do, what we're good at, which is hands-on with the trees at the earliest level- removal and recovery.
I'm not even proposing we do the actual processing ourselves. What's important here, more than anything, is our SUPPORT for the project, making this project 'our baby'. We would forge the idea into reality, work the plan for 4 months and bring the story to the world. This is an important story, you guys, and as ANYBODY can perceive, tossing primo logs into a landfill is irresponsible. If it goes the landfill way, I feel we may be partly to blame for that 'lack of action'. We ARE the industry in the midst of it all, the ultimate outcome being determined in large part by us, here and now. Do we do something, or do we not do something?
This is a normal tree cleanup, scaled up a couple million-fold. The logistics change, but the core work is the same, our hands and our saws. We can easily have a say-so in where those logs go and how they're processed, we just need to ALIGN, take a firm stand for the environment and create win-wins for the people, the communities, the industry alliances and the economy.
It's just communication at this point, ideas in our head, but if we put wings on those ideas, they will fly.
I'll fight to keep it simple, and cost effective. I have the feeling we will have the blessing of local officials because clearly, this is an important project. As for the enrollment of the companies, we need to show the benefit of involvement to them. If they already want in (and why shouldn't they?) we give them an outlet. Our abilities as a group here will automatically promote and endorse the project, nurture it through it's process and stay with it for the duration.
I'm committed. Recycling and helping the planet is a core passion of mine. So is wood. So are trees. And I'm particularly fond of people. I will donate and dedicate my time for the next 4 months to doing this.
4 months is a blip in time, but we can make a big difference. It starts somewhere. It starts here. I am more than happy to call companies and coordinate the effort, and I'm asking nothing of any particular one of you except to support the idea. Do WE want it? Individual involvement may come later, as to how it fits with you, but as far as the launching of the idea, we collectively, as a group, just need to nod our heads forward in support of it.
Similar threads
