Save the salamander

[Haywire Haywood]

This is certainly something to consider... but think about. Is it really about what will happen to US if one species disappears? Surely, if the last Condors or a single species of salamander or snake goes south it will not have any impact on us.. zip, zero, zilch. There's very little issue here.

There are really TWO issues:

1) First, you have to ask yourself if you believe in INTRINSIC value. Do things have value BEYOND what we can do with them. Are people the ONLY measure of what is good in the world or do other things matter? I think a more selfish and thoughtless person is going to tend to choose in favor of thinking that what he can do with something is the only measure of its value. A less selfish person is going to choose to believe that things have value beyond what he can do with them. Species and biodiversity will be important to this person as will flowers, planets, stars, the arts, someone else's cornfield and everything this person may not use but has decided has value for a hundred other reasons NOT NECESSARILY related to him.

2) Second, a scientist who, by virtue of education and study, understands that EVERYTHING is part of a system. A man who never changes the oil in his car will still be able to drive to the store to get his groceries for a long time.... until the damage is so bad that the system (engine) ceases to function or now functions so badly that he's realized too late that he's put his family in jeapordy. This is a huge mistake. Dirty oil (a dying salamander) doesn't hurt anything, but don't make the mistake of deciding it doesn't MEAN anything.. that's just plain old, lazy, shortsighted, bad logic.

The REAL question, gentlemen, isn't "is this species worth saving" or "what does the damn salamander do anyways," the real question is

"WHO ARE YOU, HAVE YOU INVESTED THE TIME AND EFFORT REQUIRED TO UNDERSTAND YOUR WORLD, AND WHAT DO YOU STAND FOR"

And I was doing so well in the rep department *sigh* ...oh well, I guess we all have to make sacrifices.

Blah Blah... spray'em with diesel. :hmm3grin2orange:

Ian

 

[andrethegiant70]

Ian! Young Man, shame on you! :fart:

 

[rms61moparman]

The point I'm trying to make is that the creatures that are extinct are usually extinct for a reason. Sometimes as in the case of the Dodo because they were stupid and if man hadn't killed them off something else most probably would have. But usually it is the inability to adapt. Is playing God by "saving" an organism that is destined to extinction better than playing God by causing its extinction?
If you go back through the list of all of the animals that are extinct which ones would you save? The dodo, the passenger pigeon, the saber toothed tiger, tyrannasaurus rex, stegosaurus, all of them? Where are you going to put them ? How long would it be before they were extinct again? I am against the needless anniahliation of any creature but some of them are going to have to either adapt or die off. What about all of the creatures that became extinct through no fault of man?
I am all for giving the little salamanders a chance to survive but I am against changing the way the world evolves because they fail to adapt!

 

[RAYINTOMBALL]

The great post by Wildbio (not sure if Leopold is considered transcendentalist or not) made me think of Emerson. This might give some insight to how some view nature. I know it is long, but well worth the time to read.

Ralph Waldo Emerson on nature:

"To speak truly, few adult persons can see nature. Note Most persons do not see the sun. At least they have a very superficial seeing. The sun illuminates only the eye of the man, but shines into the eye and the heart of the child. The lover of nature is he whose inward and outward senses are still truly adjusted to each other; who has retained the spirit of infancy even into the era of manhood. His intercourse with heaven and earth, becomes part of his daily food. In the presence of nature, a wild delight runs through the man, in spite of real sorrows. Nature says, -- he is my creature, and maugre Definition all his impertinent griefs, he shall be glad with me. Not the sun or the summer alone, but every hour and season yields its tribute of delight; for every hour and change corresponds to and authorizes a different state of the mind, Note from breathless noon to grimmest midnight. Nature is a setting that fits equally well a comic or a mourning piece. In good health, the air is a cordial of incredible virtue. Crossing a bare common, in snow puddles, at twilight, under a clouded sky, without having in my thoughts any occurrence of special good fortune, Note I have enjoyed a perfect exhilaration.I am glad to the brink of fear. Note In the woods too, a man casts off his years, as the snake his slough Definition, and at what period soever of life, is always a child. Note In the woods, is perpetual youth. Within these plantations of God, a decorum and sanctity reign, a perennial festival is dressed, and the guest sees not how he should tire of them in a thousand years. In the woods, we return to reason and faith. There I feel that nothing can befall me in life, -- no disgrace, no calamity, (leaving me my eyes,) Note which nature cannot repair. Standing on the bare ground, Note -- my head bathed by the blithe air, and uplifted into infinite space, -- all mean egotism vanishes. I become a transparent eye-ball; I am nothing; I see all; the currents of the Universal Being circulate through me; I am part or particle of God. Note The name of the nearest friend sounds then foreign and accidental: to be brothers, to be acquaintances, -- master or servant, is then a trifle and a disturbance. I am the lover of uncontained and immortal beauty.In the wilderness, I find something more dear and connate Note than in streets or villages. In the tranquil landscape, and especially in the distant line of the horizon, man beholds somewhat as beautiful as his own nature."

Hey Plantbio this ones even deeper. I'm talking Mariana Trench material.:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[andrethegiant70]

The point I'm trying to make is that the creatures that are extinct are usually extinct for a reason. Sometimes as in the case of the Dodo because they were stupid and if man hadn't killed them off something else most probably would have. But usually it is the inability to adapt. Is playing God by "saving" an organism that is destined to extinction better than playing God by causing its extinction?
If you go back through the list of all of the animals that are extinct which ones would you save? The dodo, the passenger pigeon, the saber toothed tiger, tyrannasaurus rex, stegosaurus, all of them? Where are you going to put them ? How long would it be before they were extinct again? I am against the needless anniahliation of any creature but some of them are going to have to either adapt or die off. What about all of the creatures that became extinct through no fault of man?
I am all for giving the little salamanders a chance to survive but I am against changing the way the world evolves because they fail to adapt!

Now THOSE are terrific points and I could not have expressed them better. I hope you understand, though, if I rebutt. Aren't we already playing God by growing faster now than ever before in planetary history? I have to ask you if you think we are growing in an intelligent way?

How would we decide whether a species became extinct through no fault of our own? You have to admit we have transformed the surface of the planet in every way. Any reasonable person who looks at the extinction of species as a phenomenon MUST admit that we are playing a significant role. If you accept this fact, which I personally think is incontrovertible, you must make the decision to either care or not care. If you care (and I hope we all consider ourselves caring, decent people) then the next responsible step is deciding what to do about it. I think this is where most of us fall down.... we care, but we cannot muster the courage to act.

I'm certain that you are right in some respects... some species are simply outcompeted by others and NOT by man. But how many can you really say that about? And are you seriously making an argument that we should not protect anything because it might get in our way? (By the way, I don't think you are) If the answer is, "of course not" then the only answer that can come next is WHAT (specifically) are you going to do? That means rules and regulations, and as much as we hate it, its a necessary evil. I don't like paying my taxes much, but I don't want my kid to go uneducated.

BTW... sorry everyone.. I'll get off my soap box now. This is probably the wrong place to talk about these things, but its hard to argue that these aren't important issues. Who started this thread anyways? Don't they know I can't help myself? Nobody cares if we bend logic to cheat on a diet or buy a new chainsaw..... but the environment is in too much trouble to use the same trickery.

 

[Hugenpoet]

Any reasonable person who looks at the extinction of species as a phenomenon MUST admit that we are playing a significant role. .

Well any reasonable person must admit that the extinction of species was going on at a rather productive (if you are a Darwinian) pace long before man existed on the planet. What you are describing is momentary in a multi-billion year process.

 

[extraspecialman]

I must admit Im not a big reader.Never even heard of the folks that wrote that stuff,but they musta been pretty smart.I do remember one short story from school,titled,The Lizard.Once upon a midnight dreary,as I pondered weak and weary,I stepped on a lizard,there were guts galore.Quote the lizard "nevermore".

 

[spacemule]

I must admit Im not a big reader.Never even heard of the folks that wrote that stuff,but they musta been pretty smart.I do remember one short story from school,titled,The Lizard.Once upon a midnight dreary,as I pondered weak and weary,I stepped on a lizard,there were guts galore.Quote the lizard "nevermore".

Sounds like a parody of Edgar Allan Poe's "The Raven,"--one of the best poets and writers ever.

http://www.heise.de/ix/raven/Literature/Lore/TheRaven.html

 

[RAYINTOMBALL]

I must admit Im not a big reader.Never even heard of the folks that wrote that stuff,but they musta been pretty smart.I do remember one short story from school,titled,The Lizard.Once upon a midnight dreary,as I pondered weak and weary,I stepped on a lizard,there were guts galore.Quote the lizard "nevermore".

Now that's real poetry.

 

[extraspecialman]

Ty,ty.It just came to me.Dark,yet light hearted.A little deeper reading into that poem,you may even see the struggle a young boy faces while venturing into man hood.Now matter the interpretation ya get,I hope you all are a bit more enlightened now.

 

[Gologit]

I must admit Im not a big reader.Never even heard of the folks that wrote that stuff,but they musta been pretty smart.I do remember one short story from school,titled,The Lizard.Once upon a midnight dreary,as I pondered weak and weary,I stepped on a lizard,there were guts galore.Quote the lizard "nevermore".

That's one of the reasons loggers wear caulks. You just kinda spear those little slimers and they don't suffer as much.

Sorry Plant Bio and WildBio...I just couldn't resist.

 

[RAYINTOMBALL]

Ty,ty.It just came to me.Dark,yet light hearted.A little deeper reading into that poem,you may even see the struggle a young boy faces while venturing into man hood.Now matter the interpretation ya get,I hope you all are a bit more enlightened now.

I know I'm more enlightened. Thanks! Or am I more lit? Oh well ,think I'll have another beer.