Save the salamander

[stihl sawing]

Hey I'm a Logger and we got shut down do too salmon. Wild salmon that "used" too swim up river in large amounts too spawn. I'm not very close too the river's but there are several streams that tie in. It is what it is.
Plant Bio's got a point. If people hadn't been so adament back when we could have made a difference, it would never have come too the present day laws that now force us too do the right thing. I don't like it, but I abide by it.

Good post.

 

[Haywire Haywood]

Wasn't that from over fishing them out in the ocean rather than silt from logging ops?

Ian

 

[PB]

Wasn't that from over fishing them out in the ocean rather than silt from logging ops?

Ian

Combination of both. Dams built to run logs down the river blocked the migration of the fish back up to the spawning grounds. Dams were also built to provide electricity, mostly hydro electric up here. With the removal of dams under way, the salmon population is starting to recover, slowly, but still recovering. I think a large dam near Augusta is scheduled to be removed, Zodiac do you know? Pesticide runoff is also a major factor influencing the Atlantic salmon population.

 

[bama]

Combination of both. Dams built to run logs down the river blocked the migration of the fish back up to the spawning grounds. Dams were also built to provide electricity, mostly hydro electric up here. With the removal of dams under way, the salmon population is starting to recover, slowly, but still recovering. I think a large dam near Augusta is scheduled to be removed, Zodiac do you know? Pesticide runoff is also a major factor influencing the Atlantic salmon population.

I thought I just read today on CNN that they are talking about eliminating the fishing season for some types of salmon fishing in California and Oregon. Not many salmon coming up to spawn(like 55,000).

I want there to be something left in this world left for my children and their grandchildren. They shouldn't have to fix the things we broke. Besides, they will have their hands full with fixing the budget deficit, social security, and medicare. They won't have time for anything else.

 

[lesorubcheek]

Disregarding laws is a break down of democracy.

The majority of laws in this land are enacted via an elected body (republic) and with no direct input from the common citizens agreement or disagreement. We merely choose the people who will make laws that we are to obey. Democracy does not exist. If we were a democracy, the PEOPLE would legislate, not an elected body.

Dan

 

[Haywire Haywood]

Pesticide runoff is also a major factor influencing the Atlantic salmon population.

That reminds me... I gotta spray for... what was it now... I forget. I'll just make up a big batch of sevin and malathion and hose it around. I'll probably get what ever it was that was bothering me. :greenchainsaw:

Ian

 

[madrone]

I used to be something of an enviro. and now I cut firewood and prune trees for a living and have a bunch of logger friends. I've never advocated an end to logging, thats crazy. Nobody likes to see anyone out of work. At the same time I appreciate the critters that are out there, some I want to eat, some I just like look at.
I DO like to know that there are wild places left with healthy animal life just as I like to know that there's a 7-11 down the road to get beer. Some loggers are ass kicking, hard working people trying to feed their families and make it with their sweat and skill, and some activists are bad ass, hard workers trying to protect places that they deeply feel need protecting. Neither are right or wrong all the time, sometimes they just converge on places like cheat Mtn. and neither wants to budge.
If enough scientists say this is the last spot on earth for these critters, I say it's not a bad idea to pass it by. Thats just me.

 

[Haywire Haywood]

The majority of laws in this land are enacted via an elected body (republic) and with no direct input from the common citizens agreement or disagreement. We merely choose the people who will make laws that we are to obey. Democracy does not exist. If we were a democracy, the PEOPLE would legislate, not an elected body.

Dan

Which is why we are not, and never were, a true democracy. We are a Representative Democracy which means we elect people who tell us tall tails about what they will do for us and then carry on their own agenda once in office.

Ian

Edit... and furthermore... if we were a true democracy, the rural people wouldn't stand a chance in Hades of getting anything they wanted because the population of the large urban areas would have the votes to do anything they wanted.

 

[PB]

The majority of laws in this land are enacted via an elected body (republic) and with no direct input from the common citizens agreement or disagreement. We merely choose the people who will make laws that we are to obey. Democracy does not exist. If we were a democracy, the PEOPLE would legislate, not an elected body.

Dan

We live in a representative democracy, we choose the individuals to represent us. If we don't like what they do, we have the choice to not elect them again. It was the same in Athens and Rome, when they were democratic. The representatives are speaking for the people that elect them, it is more stream lined and efficient than getting everyone in America to vote. Trying to educate the population on a subject coming to vote would be almost impossible.

 

[hanniedog]

We had the same problem with eagles in Ohio when the population of birds increased. ODNR was up the farmers ars for being to close to the nests. The eagles see the farmer as someone who kicks up a free meal once in awhile. The nest 1/2 mile from my place produced 4 eaglets last year. Was fun to see ma and pa teaching kids how to hunt.

 

[Brushstomper]

This is a good discussion about a serious matter, but I believe this can never be resolved without the help of a Stihl MS 361.

 

[wildbio]

Now he says hes gotta go through a bunch of crap and send off for a permit to continue his loggin operation.I had never heard of a shut down like this on private land.

He's shut down because he didn't get a permit - didn't go through the legal requirements for that piece of land. In a like manner if he didn't have his drivers license he could get "shut down" from being able to drive there.

I work with the endangered species act on a daily basis (for a multiple-use federal agency; disclaimer: the views expressed here are my own) - interpreting the effects of the action (in this case a timber harvest - of which I work on many), developing mitigation measures to reduce any negative effects of the action, and consulting with US Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS - agency charged with enforcing the ESA).

From my experience, and I work on a lot of timber sales in endangered species habitats, mitigation measures can be developed to allow for win-win situations. Retaining portions of the stand, selective harvest, timing of operations, low-impact removal methods, replanting, road obliteration, etc. all of these measures might be useful for reducing the impact....maybe not avoiding an impact all together but reducing it.... As long as the activities don't jeopardize the future of the species, the USFWS will usually issue a permit (a "take" permit if mortality of individual animals will result) otherwise they will concur that although there "may be an effect," the effect will be reduced by mitigation measures and therefore the determination is "may effect, not likely to adversely effect." It may (will) take work to get to this determination (balance impacts to the species with being able to do the timber harvest) but I have never seen a project stopped because of it....but then I believe in (and work towards) balancing protection of the resource (wildlife, fish, plants, etc) with utilization of the resource (timber, minerals, etc.).

 

[lesorubcheek]

It was the same in Athens and Rome, when they were democratic. The representatives are speaking for the people that elect them

This is not correct. Following is a cut/paste from Wiki:

Athenian democracy developed in the Greek city-state of Athens, comprising the central city-state of Athens and the surrounding territory of Attica, around 500 BC. Athens was one of the very first known democracies and probably the most important in ancient times. Other Greek cities set up democracies, most but not all following an Athenian model, but none were as powerful or as stable (or as well-documented) as that of Athens. It remains a unique and intriguing experiment in direct democracy where the people do not elect representatives to vote on their behalf but vote on legislation and executive bills in their own right. Participation was by no means open to all inhabitants of Attica, but the in-group of participants was constituted with no reference to economic class and they participated on a scale that was truly phenomenal. The public opinion of voters was remarkably influenced by the political satire performed by the comic poets at the theaters.[1]


Dan

 

[PB]

He's shut down because he didn't get a permit - didn't go through the legal requirements for that piece of land. In a like manner if he didn't have his drivers license he could get "shut down" from being able to drive there.

I work with the endangered species act on a daily basis (for a multiple-use federal agency; disclaimer: the views expressed here are my own) - interpreting the effects of the action (in this case a timber harvest - of which I work on many), developing mitigation measures to reduce any negative effects of the action, and consulting with US Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS - agency charged with enforcing the ESA).

From my experience, and I work on a lot of timber sales in endangered species habitats, mitigation measures can be developed to allow for win-win situations. Retaining portions of the stand, selective harvest, timing of operations, low-impact removal methods, replanting, road obliteration, etc. all of these measures might be useful for reducing the impact....maybe not avoiding an impact all together but reducing it.... As long as the activities don't jeopardize the future of the species, the USFWS will usually issue a permit (a "take" permit if mortality of individual animals will result) otherwise they will concur that although there "may be an effect," the effect will be reduced by mitigation measures and therefore the determination is "may effect, not likely to adversely effect." It may (will) take work to get to this determination (balance impacts to the species with being able to do the timber harvest) but I have never seen a project stopped because of it....but then I believe in (and work towards) balancing protection of the resource (wildlife, fish, plants, etc) with utilization of the resource (timber, minerals, etc.).

There you have it. Sums it up pretty well. Good post WildBio.

Selective harvest has statistically no effect on salamander survival compared to no harvest at all. Friend just defended his dissertation on the subject.

 

[PB]

This is not correct. Following is a cut/paste from Wiki:

Athenian democracy developed in the Greek city-state of Athens, comprising the central city-state of Athens and the surrounding territory of Attica, around 500 BC. Athens was one of the very first known democracies and probably the most important in ancient times. Other Greek cities set up democracies, most but not all following an Athenian model, but none were as powerful or as stable (or as well-documented) as that of Athens. It remains a unique and intriguing experiment in direct democracy where the people do not elect representatives to vote on their behalf but vote on legislation and executive bills in their own right. Participation was by no means open to all inhabitants of Attica, but the in-group of participants was constituted with no reference to economic class and they participated on a scale that was truly phenomenal. The public opinion of voters was remarkably influenced by the political satire performed by the comic poets at the theaters.[1]


Dan

http://www.ricocheting.com/school/Athenian.Democracy.vs.Modern.Democracy.html

I am not a political historian, but either way we are a democratic society.

 

[Haywire Haywood]

Trying to educate the population on a subject coming to vote would be almost impossible.

Trying to get Senators and Representatives educated on a subject AND coming to vote is bad enough...

Ian

 

[lesorubcheek]

http://www.ricocheting.com/school/Athenian.Democracy.vs.Modern.Democracy.html

I am not a political historian, but either way we are a democratic society.

Its hard to refute the fact that we actually are governed under a democratically elected republic. Except for local laws that may come to the ballot, all laws are passed by a group of people we choose to do so. Forgive me, but I hear every day on the radio or on TV that we live in a "democracy". I'm sick of the media terming our form of government as such. Its not 100% correct. It leads people into a false sense of power, security, and laxity regarding their authority dealing with government. Government must remain "of the people, by the people, for the people", or democracy in any sence will cease to exist.

Dan

Dan

 

[computeruser]

I am guessing that I would rather live next to the salamander than most people who will respond in this thread.

I think that there are lot of people in this world whose demise would be of lesser consequence than the loss of the salamander species at issue.

 

[spacemule]

 

[spacemule]