split tails

[treeclimber165]

OK, today I bought my first-ever biners and a split tail. I spent almost two hours playing in the oak in my backyard trying to see the advantage of a split tail. I don't see it.
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Old system- one rope, one clip. Check clip on D-rings, check friction hitch. (Right hand stays on hitch most of the time anyway)
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New system- One rope tied to biner. Check knot to make sure it doesn't slip or roll on biner.
Split tail girth hitched to biner. Make sure girth hitch doesn't slip around on biner.
Clip two biners to D-rings. Clip in opposing directions to prevent gates from rubbing each other (makes it much harder to get out of this mess, too). Deal with additional bulk in front of my gut, much more complicated than old system. Constantly check knots and attachment points (many more places to check now).
Tie friction hitch with split tail. Check friction hitch (This part is easy, hand stays on it most of the time).

OK, so how is this new way so much easier and better?? I must be missing something, because I'm ready to toss the split tail and extra crap and just go back to one rope. Perhaps a biner instead of a clip for reduced weight, but that is negligable. How is all this extra stuff supposed to be 'better'???

Sign me Confused

 

[DDM]

Hmmmmm are you using it on 2 sliding rings or fixed ones? sounds like sliding rings. I use the split tail system I dont know why just the system ive always used. I use it on my 2 side fixed rings of course the way my saddle is designed if i'd buy a spreader snap and use the system on my floating rings it would be more comfortable.
Just think all all the new toys you have now If you decide to chunk the split tail send it to me i'll trade you something for it.

 

[treeclimber165]

No, I have 4 D-rings. Two side and two front. Now you say I gotta add a spreader snap too? I thought this was supposed to be LIGHTER?

Tried the rolling D once, got rid of it after a month. My ams and chest were black and blue from getting pinched by the roller. I will NEVER use a rolling D setup again.

 

[Tim Gardner]

Brian,

I went to the split tail system several years ago. The system was not very friendly for me the first few trees I climbed. At the time I was using two snaps. One on the tail and one on the line. That worked great for a while. Once I had my line spliced I went to one biner and no girth hitch.

The cool thing about the split tail is that you can unclip the line from the biner and do your initial clip in or a redirect. If you are right handed, clip the tail in first and then the line. That way the tail stays on the biner and the biner on the dee ring while you place the line thru a crotch. Then clip the line back into the biner. Just get used to looking at the biner or feeling it with your hand to make sure it is not side loading.

 

[treeclimber165]

OK, I understand most climbers use a split tail and think it is better. The redirect thing doesn't wash with me, though. I have never made a habit of routing the two sides of my rope in different places, and rarely need to redirect with one side of the rope. My friction hitch practically ties itself and isn't a problem to untie and retie when necessary. I tend to redo it occasionally anyway when in a tree for a long time.

Are there any reasons why a split tail is a better system than a single line besides the redirect thing?

(The rope wear thing won't wash either, I replace my rope every 6-12 months and have never had a problem with wear on my friction hitch.)

 

[Greg]

I use a split tail and have almost from day 1. I think the main benefit of a split tail is that when you burn, or just decide to retire it due to over use, your friction hitch (blakes?) you don't have to cut a section out of your climbing line.
Another one of the main advantages is for when your climbing line is not together all the way down. Without a split tail you would need to untie your hitch and then re-tie it after you get over the branch in the way. With the ST you just unclip, put it over the branch, and then clip back in. I think I painted a pretty muddy picture, I hope you get what I'm saying about how to get around branches on your way up.
Also with a ST you can play around with different types of rope to see what works best. I've found that bluestreak climbing line and a blue streak ST tend to lock down too tight.
Greg

 

[Tim Gardner]

Just a few reasons I like the split tail system better:

1. Tie the hitch one time per climb.

2. Fast redirect/tie in.

3. Can pull working end of line thru a tight crotch without worrying about snap getting hung up.

4. If you drop rope while tossing it over a limb, etc, it stays on saddle and does not fall to ground.

5. Allows you to spread your two dee rings without using a spreader snap.

6. Can clip tail on one dee ring and line on the other and use it like a rolling dee saddle.

7. etc., etc. etc.

 

[kf_tree]

i'm still trying to figure out the advantage of the split tail with out actually trying it and i can't. as far as "burning the knot" i don't buy it. i do not burn out of a tree. its always a nice control decent. i've seen guys burn down a rope, but i don't do that. i replaced my climbing line about once a year. at 6 months i would just put the snap on the other end. why cut the rope back?
if one of the advantage's are not having to retie all the time, just unclip. that still won't work for my style. i tend to throw my line alot. i just wrap the tail around the snap and weave it through the snap and i have a nice throw weight. if i unclip both end with out untieing the knot it would be slower to wrap up to throw. if i untie and only have the weight of the biner(not much). if i have to make loops and wrap a coil to get the desired weight like when throwing a bull line i'm waisting time and energy.
the only advantage i see is it works with some of the different friction hitch's now getting popular. when climbing with a single tail the only knots to use (i'm sure some one will ad more) is the tautline or a blakes.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

When I recrotch I will leave my clip on, pull some line through the hitch and flip the end through the next crotch. I will sometimes use a throwline in a tree, and I can drop my rope without concern of dropping it.

If I'm moving around the tree on fliplines, I can use the climbing line as a second lanyard.

The bulk of knots is why so many people go to eye splices. Try a fishermans on your rope end. I like how they tail back upt the line and out of the way.

If out on a branch and my TIP is beind me, I can comfortably push each line off to its respective sides, since the Master saddle had sewn eyes to clip into on each side. Older saddle you'll be on your outer D's and it may be a little more clumsey.

I'll bail out of a tree, sometime on a swing so I'll clear the bushes or whatnot. With and I&I splice my cord costs me maybe $4 + 15 min of work splicing. This is distal, not Blakes so I'm going off subject. Sometimes I'll bail just for the Halibut, I dont need a Porpoise .eek: puns!)

On a simple climb wher your up and down, there will be no added advantage using a ST. It is when you are moving through a bigger canopy that the advantages become clear.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i sold a rolling D saddle cheap after a few months myself.

i think, especially on this topic, more than a few daze play is called for, to let yourself become comfortable witht he change enough to see all the new options open before you. But i don't think that you will find a real steep learning curve. i remember years ago seeing the Sherrill cartoon recomending it, and climbing hasn't been the same since!

One of my favorite things is the ability to retie in quickly to maximize comfort and safety, also as second lanyard on way up, splitting around an obstruction, temporarily redirecting 1 leg around a close anchor when far out etc. i guess the power i find in it is it's increased flexability and utility in many situations.

 

[Nickrosis]

Reason #238,523:

You can use different colors for each rope. It makes things easier to differentiate when your 3-way lanyard is running alongside your climbing line, your bridge and friction hitch, your buddy's false crotch and climbing line, the rigging rope and tagline, the whoopie sling, and your other friend's climbing line and 3-way lanyard (I had a great time yesterday!).

Reason #238,524:

In the event of an emergency, you can slash your victim's bridge and bring them to safety more easily and more quickly.

Nickrosis

 

[treeclimber165]

Originally posted by Nickrosis

Reason #238,524:

In the event of an emergency, you can slash your victim's bridge and bring them to safety more easily and more quickly.

Nickrosis

Two points on this little tidbit that has been tossed around for years.
1) If a person is unable to identify the parts of my climbing hitch without color coding, he isn't qualified to attempt an aerial rescue.
2) During aerial rescue training at Davey, I was SEVERELY chewed out for untying my 'victim's friction hitch (after I had the rope secured) and was instructed to lower the victim on his own friction hitch. So the way I was taught and certified, untying or cutting someone's rope is not allowed.

I guess if I ever climb with another climber in the same tree, we will need different colored ropes so we don't get stupid and confused as to which is our own rope. (What does this have to do with a split-tail?)

 

[Nickrosis]

Everything. Colors make things easier.

If I'm injured because my tie-in point failed, please don't lower me on my own friction hitch!

My point is that it makes things more clear in a tense, time-is-of-the-essence situation. When your head is spinning because someone is bleeding copious amounts of blood, you want things to be cut and dried, I would think.

Just climb on the system for a while, Brian. We won't be able to convince you - you have to prove it to yourself. If you don't like the split tail, do what I did and get rid of it! Get yourself a performance hitch and mail that split tail to Dave.

Nickrosis

 

[kf_tree]

"Colors make things easier" for who? since alot of tree crews only have one climber, its the fire dept that does most of the rescue's. the fire dept does not know thing one about split tails. if another climber is coming to get you, he will only be "very" familiar with your gear if that is what he use's himself. for me the only time things get confusing is when (yes i know its wrong) your lowering small stuff on an old climbing line the same color as the one being climbed with.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i like my line, tail, lanyard to be diffrent colors for like 1/4 second quicker identification of everything in tree, it just seems more positive like that!

Though, it is not one of the things i think of as one of the bigger plusses of a splittail.

i think logically a spit tail makes sense; just in the seperation of the wearable part (friction hitch) from the rest of the system so it can be replaced seperately. After that, the increased utility and flexability of having it in place opens up more options to survey equitabley to maximize safety, comfort and production, many of those options would take so much longer to employ with a built-in-tail, thereby would be passsed by.

 

[treeclimber165]

Well, I may have sounded a little pissy last night, but I was more frustrated than anything. I assumed I would see more of a difference than I did for the amount of money I spent.

I spent some time on a few different knot pages, playing around with different friction hitches. I think the biggest advantage that I can see so far is being able to use an advanced hitch. I think I'm going to try the distal hitch for a few days (As shown on page 18 of the Sherrill catalog) and perhaps some variations.

 

[tjk]

165, I understand your frustration with this new equipment, I had the same frustrations your going though. Once you get past the learning curve and you become comfortable with the gear it WILL work well for you. Since I've been using a split tail my productivity has gone up considerably and so has safety. All of the points made on this thread are good ones, I think the most important one is the ability to retie in so quikley. I manage and train 8 crews 12 climbers, they all use split tails, and they are safer. Instead of struggling out on that really long limb they will save it for the end of the climb, retie in above it {in about 30 seconds} lower down onto the limb and be very safe. Another reason We have all made the change is that the best climbers in the world use it and almost all of them are VERY productive climbers not just competitors. My advice is to watch a climber with a split tail trim or remove a large canopy tree and see if your system will allow you to be as SAFE and productive as his/hers. Good luck and do'nt give up.

 

[rbtree]

Brian,

You've gotten a ton of good responses, nothing really for me to add. Keep at it, you'll grow to love the new methods.

'Cept a question, I s'pose you are using a fairlead/slacktender pulley below your hitch? This can be done with any system, old or new. I won't climb without one.

Really, though, bypass the split tail/blake's, and go straight for a closed loop hitch setup. Also try the Schwabisch, and soon the French prussic- aka the Valdotain tresse. I finally got my main climber away from the Blake's to the schwabisch. Now he's using the Vt, which is the king of hitches in my book.

It is best to use two biners or snaps, one for the climbing knot and one for the line end. That way, the knot stays on your belt, when you need to redirect or reset the line in a higher crotch. that's where a steel biner or snap is good for weight.

Also on my belt is two or three slings, biner on each, a friction saver, and sometimes a second one to use for a redirect or double tie in, a 2nd micro pulley for hoisting gear, or light lowering. Plus a couple extra biners, and maybe a figure 8 for descent or light lowering.

 

[treeclimber165]

Thanks, Rog.
My atitude is mellowing about the whole deal. I played for an hour or so in my oak tree today using the distal hitch with both ends of the STail attached to the second biner. I think I need a longer STail to use the VT. I'm realizing that all the extra complexity and expense of a split system is simply so you can use better friction hitches. All the other arguments are kinda like 'Ford vs. Chevy' to me.

Who knows, in 3 months I might have a dozen biners and 3-4 Ultra Tech double spliced STails, with slings and pulleys hanging off of every conceivable point of my body.

 

[Rob Murphy]

Brian
I went from English prussik.12years...Blakes ST...6months....advanced hitchs... 1.5 years
Like Rog said step right up to the advanced hitchs. Hers a pic of my rig..but Iam not using the Ultra tech.