SRT advice

[pdqdl]

I played with SRT today; but I am afraid that I don't quite have it figured out, and I probably don't have the right toys for the job.

Going up the line is easy. Two ascenders, away we go! Easy! BUT...

I tried a quick transition to coming back down before I got too high. OOoops. Things started to go afoul. I was attempting to use a friction hitch in 8mm beeline for descent, but it always bound up on the 1/2" BlackMax climbing line and would not slide. VT, distal, and some other knot I made up on the spot all performed similarly: they would slide for about 2 feet, then bind up; the only option was to re-set the foot ascender and liberate the bound up friction hitch.

Here is the question: there are many different descenders that can be attached to the line, but are there any that are kept in use during the ascent? I have a figure 8, but how would one insert that into an SRT rig if you were forced to come back down in the middle of an ascent while the rope was still heavily loaded? Easy if you are standing on a branch, not so easy if just hanging in mid-air from your locked in foot ascenders.

Do the other (more money!) descenders stay in line during the ascent, or do you just figure out how to put it on when you decide to change directions?

 

[moss]

I played with SRT today; but I am afraid that I don't quite have it figured out, and I probably don't have the right toys for the job.

Going up the line is easy. Two ascenders, away we go! Easy! BUT...

I tried a quick transition to coming back down before I got too high. OOoops. Things started to go afoul. I was attempting to use a friction hitch in 8mm beeline for descent, but it always bound up on the 1/2" BlackMax climbing line and would not slide. VT, distal, and some other knot I made up on the spot all performed similarly: they would slide for about 2 feet, then bind up; the only option was to re-set the foot ascender and liberate the bound up friction hitch.

Here is the question: there are many different descenders that can be attached to the line, but are there any that are kept in use during the ascent? I have a figure 8, but how would one insert that into an SRT rig if you were forced to come back down in the middle of an ascent while the rope was still heavily loaded? Easy if you are standing on a branch, not so easy if just hanging in mid-air from your locked in foot ascenders.

Do the other (more money!) descenders stay in line during the ascent, or do you just figure out how to put it on when you decide to change directions?

As you figured out hitches don't work for SRT descent. In DRT climbing the hitch is only carrying half the load (more or less depending on other variables) that's why it works.

You've just described a RADS system, Grigr, Eddy, Petzl I'D are all devices that can be used in a RADS. They're positioned on the rope and ready for descent, just take the ascender off the rope and go
RADS video

Grigri is what I use for a RADS.

Switchover to F8 SRT
You asked how to switch from ascent to descent on an F8?
Assume you're talking about a Texas System or "jugging" rig?

1. Lanyard in if you can as a backup. Can be done without and you should learn how to do it without but if you have something to tie into... do it.

2. Take your feet out of the footloops

3. Pull enough rope up through the bottom ascender to install the F8 below the upper ascender and above the lower ascender.

4. Clip the F8 into your harness, verify you're on the F8 correctly. Lock off the F8.

5. Move the lower ascender up to a few inches below the F8, stand on the footloops

6. The upper ascender is now unloaded, take it off the rope and sit back down.

7. You're on the F8 now, take the lower ascender off the rope

Practice low and slow. After you do this a few times you'll be able to apply the principle to any SRT switchover. Many ways to skin a cat, for instance if you're not using footloops then you footlock the tail of the rope to stand up and take the ascender off above the F8. It will all make sense once you try it out.
-moss

 

[pdqdl]

It is very cool to hear from you on this moss...I have been busy watching some of your videos. Got the Yo-yo system figured out, but I don't have a gri gri.

I was trying to set up something like Beranaks rope walker setup, but on SRT instead of Ddrt. So far, I haven't got that worked out. Your advice on setting the F8 would work fine if I didn't have the ascenders all down at my feet. It also looks like a grigri would not work with both the ascenders mounted low, either.

I don't understand any of the f8-revolver videos I have seen. Every video I have seen seems to think we know what they are talking about, so they don't show the closeup details, leaving me clueless. The best I can figure, they are using the f8 as an additional friction device mounted higher than a traditional friction hitch.

Speaking of details, I watched your video highlighting the xt friction hitch, but it doesn't show you coming back down. I presume that chokes down pretty tight, too?


NOTE: I haven't finished your video on the RADS yet.

 

[pdqdl]

What a hoot! I was watching the video that you linked me to, right before you posted it.

I would like to believe that this proves that great minds think alike!

 

[moray]

I played with SRT today...

Sounds like a Beatles song...

Moss was too modest, but he has put together a ton of excellent videos showing how to do it--maybe he'll post some links.

It won't take long before you loathe the idea of climbing very far DRT when SRT is so much cleaner and easier. That fat rope of yours may not be the best choice for SRT, but you already know it is easy to climb it SRT. With a thinner rope there are all sorts of excellent mechanical descenders available to give you a smooth and easy ride down. I love my fat ropes, but my thin ones seem to get a lot more use these days.

 

[pdqdl]

This thread has most of the good vid's posted in it. http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=107932&highlight=srt
As you can see, I've been trolling for more answers, as I am unwilling to just let you guys spoon feed me the answers.

I think my basic problem is that I didn't want to try the rads system (don't got a grigri), I wanted a full time ready-to-go descender, and I want a rope walker system, too. Being top heavy, I wanted the ascenders low.

I may be asking for too much just starting out, you think?

I have stared and stared at the f8-revolver video, I may have figured out how that works. That one will definitely be tested close to the ground.

 

[pdqdl]

... That fat rope of yours may not be the best choice for SRT, but you already know it is easy to climb it SRT.
...

No fat ropes here (for most work). I'm already on 10mm Velocity. It just falls through the ascenders.

My experiment today was just using the line that we already had in the tree. I raise my DdRT system into a tree using a single line attached to a screw link. We tried the SRT climb on the fat line since we didn't think it would interfere with the futile SRT attempt.

Actually, it wasn't completely futile. Going up the rope was easy. Unwilling to go crazy until the bugs were worked out, coming back down was disappointing. It doesn't help that I didn't think the F8 would be needed only 10-15 feet up, so I didn't bring it with me.

 

[moss]

I think my basic problem is that I didn't want to try the rads system (don't got a grigri), I wanted a full time ready-to-go descender, and I want a rope walker system, too. Being top heavy, I wanted the ascenders low.

I may be asking for too much just starting out, you think?

If you're top heavy the Mitchell System with a chest roller is going to be the best setup for your body type. While you're climbing SRT you want your body to be fairly upright the whole time which the Mitchell allows. If you have a system that makes you sit down per pull that means your arms will be lifting your upper body every pull, you'll be tired real fast.

RADS would be decent for you too, it's worth investing in a Grigri or similar device.
-moss

 

[moss]

Speaking of details, I watched your video highlighting the xt friction hitch, but it doesn't show you coming back down. I presume that chokes down pretty tight, too?

That was on a DRT system so it works the same and as well as any hitch for DRT descent. Would have the same problem as any hitch for SRT descent.
-moss

 

[moss]

It also looks like a grigri would not work with both the ascenders mounted low, either.

Definitely not, there's no reason to grab the tail below the Grigri with an ascender. There's enough MA below the Grigri you just need your right arm to do the light duty work on the tail. Your left arm is doing 1:1 as you stand up on the footloop with your hand on the ascender but the load is shared between your leg in the footloop and your right hand on the tail, it's a pretty breezy way to climb SRT.
-moss

 

[pdqdl]

I think you are right about the RADS. Does the equipment expen$e ever quit?

Mitchel system could be re-invented with some loop runners and carabiners, too. I think it might also be real easy to splice up a very nice tenex body harness with whoopie sling adjusters on it for the chest and shoulders that would duplicate the Mitchel harness functions without spending much money. I got lots of time to splice...Fun to do while watching TV.

 

[moss]

Mitchel system could be re-invented with some loop runners and carabiners, too. I think it might also be real easy to splice up a very nice tenex body harness with whoopie sling adjusters on it for the chest and shoulders that would duplicate the Mitchel harness functions without spending much money. I got lots of time to splice...Fun to do while watching TV.

Definitely, you should be able to rig Mitchell with what you got laying around o rcan pick up at a local outdoor gear store. If you can do something with webbing for the chest harness it might be more comfortable than tenex.
-moss

 

[kevin bingham]

So the Fate system basically puts a heat sink above your hitch tat you can slide up the rope as you move around the tree. It allows you to work SRT. I now use the kong robot to do this. The revolver inserted in the big ring of the eight does this as well. It is not complicated but it allows you to quickly go from acent to descent. for ascent I use an ascender with a foot strap, a pantin, and my hitch held up high as my chest acender.

the kong pops on when I need to work, it can slide up and down the rope so I can manage my slack easily. For long ascents or mid air ascents, it can easily be popped off the rope leaving just the hitch. Here is a picture taking advantage of multiple redirects to get where I need to go. I almost never climb ddrt anymore.

 

[Damon]

the black diamond atc guide is a relatively inexpensive single or double rope descender that can be installed mid climb also look at the petzl reverso and reversino if you don't want to break the bank on a cinch grigri etc. all of these devices are auto locking and make great repelling devices they are also handy if you have a new guy you want to let try climbing something but you don't trust him enough to let him be in control of his own descent. These devices have been used for years in rock climbing settings and are tried and true they offer much less opportunity for things to go terribly wrong when your starting then a grigri because when used in conjunction with an autoblock they are less prone to panic falls.

as for installing gear mid stream i usually just prusik or Blake's hitch either a single or double line high enough to install an f8 or similar then pull my accenders unweight the prusik/Blake's and enjoy the ride back to the ground

Tom