Stihl Contra electronic ignition too advanced

[dolmenman1]

Ok...here's my problem and any help would be greatly appreciated.
When I got this saw (1106 with 32" bar), it had one of those NOVA II chips, which failed. I replaced it and it failed again (No Spark). The points were missing so I replaced the whole ignition with one of those electronic ones
The saw ran Ok for a few days but with a lot of "kickback" when starting.

Today it has gotten so bad that the starter is impossible to pull (thought it was hydro locked). Also kicks back with a puff of white smoke and a bang out of the exhaust. I've located the flywheel on the crank by the woodruff key. It turns over fine, with no plug. With the plug and the kill switch it still turns over, but is locked for the first few tries. The only way to retard the timing is by moving the backplate with the ignition ,clockwise .Tried this and still impossible to pull.
I am reluctant to file the woodruff key and move the flywheel clockwise, but is there any way to retard the timing further? Of course I'm assuming it is a symptom of bad timing.
I am currently recovering with a very sore wrist and fingers..lol

 

[cbfarmall]

Without looking at the IPL, is it possible the electronic ignition requires a different flywheel? The nova chip may be electronic but it would use the original flywheel. The Contra never had an electronic unit so it wouldn't show up as an option, have to examine 070 ipls. Personally, I would try to put points back in.

 

[dolmenman1]

Without looking at the IPL, is it possible the electronic ignition requires a different flywheel? The nova chip may be electronic but it would use the original flywheel. The Contra never had an electronic unit so it wouldn't show up as an option, have to examine 070 ipls. Personally, I would try to put points back in.

Thanks for the answer...I've no idea if the flywheel should be different.

Today I set the backplate of the ignition to it's furthest retarded. Managed to get the saw started and cut a little. Stopped to adjust the carb as thought it a bit rich. The recoil upon starting her was so bad it pulled the cord through the handle and jammed it. Have had to order a new recoil starter.

I think I've no choice but to go back to the points as I've considered expanding the mounting lugs on the ignition backplate to retard it more, but can only go a little bit as the mounting for the coil is in the way..

 

[pioneerguy600]

Retarding the flywheel is relatively simple and really is about all the choice you have left now, black marker on the flywheel at the hub where the keyway is located and mark the crank the same. Mount the flywheel and retard it about the width of the marker line, torque the flywheel nut down to the specified torque and try it, if not far enough move it a bit more, the sweet spot will be there, one just needs to find it. I have more than 20 saws running without locating keys, they do nothing for holding the flywheel in place if the nut is not tightened adequately, it is the tapers on both units that hold the flywheel in place when torqued down proper.

 

[Old2stroke]

Thanks for the answer...I've no idea if the flywheel should be different.

Today I set the backplate of the ignition to it's furthest retarded. Managed to get the saw started and cut a little. Stopped to adjust the carb as thought it a bit rich. The recoil upon starting her was so bad it pulled the cord through the handle and jammed it. Have had to order a new recoil starter.

I think I've no choice but to go back to the points as I've considered expanding the mounting lugs on the ignition backplate to retard it more, but can only go a little bit as the mounting for the coil is in the way..

When you suspect you are having timing issues, it helps to use a timing light and a drill to run the engine over and find out exactly where the timing is. Saves some trial and error work.

 

[heimannm]

 

[Lightning Performance]

Hope he finds the problem you guys gave him all the answers

 

[ZeroJunk]

How much advance would you set on that mule ?

 

[Old2stroke]

How much advance would you set on that mule ?

The problem is, if he goes with a points/cap/coil setup it is fixed ignition timing and if you retard it too much for easy starting, you are also retarding the timing for high speed operation which should be at least 25 deg BTDC. Many of the older saws with fixed timing magneto ignition were set at 30 deg and that's probably the max advance for a stock saw. A lot depends on where the timing is now, he might be able to come up with a compromise setting that makes for easier starting but doesn't harm the top end.

 

[dolmenman1]

Ok guys...thanks for the answers....I've solved it, I think!
As a last resort, I ordered another electronic ignition from Sagenspezi in Germany.
I noticed this one had a fixed backing plate, so there was no option to advance/retard it. The other electronic ignition I had used was adjustable but I suspect, a generic Chinese ignition.
While the saw is still hard to pull (I've found it's best to slowly pull it to the start of the compression stroke, before giving it a short, quick, firm pull), it is easier started and is running and idling much better.
I will leave well alone for now, as I won't need it until the Spring, and if it proves too difficult, Ill probably try the points. Thanks again for the help. This is a great site.

I'm also having difficulty getting the carb right on a little Husky 45, but that is another story

 

[dolmenman1]

Just an update....starting easy enough, although could do with idling slightly lower and she's a bit smokey as the mixture is about 12:1 (it is very windy here too, which makes it look worse).
View attachment Contra.mp4

 

[hotshot]

Good find. That saw has great compression.

Did Saegenspezi refund your money or exchange the original electronic ignition module?

 

[dolmenman1]

Good find. That saw has great compression.

Did Saegenspezi refund your money or exchange the original electronic ignition module?

I hadn't bought the original one from them...I had seen one on amazon uk (which looked the same and was allegedly for the Contra 1106) and ordered it as it was cheaper and more quickly delivered. I haven't bothered returning it as it isn't worth the hassle and it did work (only badly).
Lesson learnt....
Yes, the saw has great compression for a 1966/7 saw. It still has the original bar or a least one from that era with "Stihl 1106 82" engraved on it.

 

[av8or3]

I’m with Chris, I believe I’d restore the
magneto. Points and condenser. Seems to run ok, but I bet it would run better with the original stuff in it.

 

[dolmenman1]

I'll have to examine the the cam on the crank first, to make sure it's not too worn down...there must have been a reason why the points were removed in the first place..

The points would give me more flexibility to advance/retard the timing I suppose, but meanwhile, my partner is complaining about me spending too long in the shed, at night, dabbling with the Stihl and a Husky 45 from the '80's...you know what women are like...lol

 

[av8or3]

It’s just my opinion, but many shops just don’t do points anymore. Around here, when asked if they can tune up an 031AV they just grin and look at you in disbelief, like “you’re kidding, right?” I like magnetos . You can see and troubleshoot what’s going on. And they work. The shop, or person that put the chip in was just scared of magnetos. I mean, you have to set the points and every thing. Jeeez.
Just wire one of them things in and close it up and you’re done. But I will tell you this . In every case where I put points back in the saw, it ran better. You can tune it to run almost any way you want. You just need to become familiar.

 

[dolmenman1]

Yes, I agree....when I first got the saw I took it to the local shop and the guy was younger than me and hadn't seen a saw of that age before...there was no point in leaving it with him.
Fortunately, I have a good understanding of motors, and what I don't know, I can research on the internet, and ask guys like you, on excellent forums such as this one.
In my youth I drove many cars (and particular motorbikes) with coils and points, and remember old cement mixers etc with magneto systems (I wish I'd paid more attention to my dad, who understood these things well).
The points ignition is still available on the Sagenspezi website here.
My only worry is that the lobe on the crank (for opening the points) is worn too much.
This old saw has become a labour of love for me and I intend to get it running and usable, not a collectors item sitting on a shelf, however I'm always open to good advise.
I have put the saw away for the holidays and probably won't bother with it until the spring. I'll keep you guys informed how I get on...
On a side note, what would a saw like this be worth, running and cutting but not restored? I have no intention of selling it btw as I have a few large trees to fell in the spring...

 

[pioneerguy600]

It is sort of difficult to come up with a price which varies a lot due to location, for me on this side of the big pond one in running condition and mostly intact physically would run between $350 - $500. It looks like yours would clean up well and even the top cover is intact, can`t see the airshield under the engine cover, they are often missing and a bit difficult to find in good condition.

 

[dolmenman1]

It is sort of difficult to come up with a price which varies a lot due to location, for me on this side of the big pond one in running condition and mostly intact physically would run between $350 - $500. It looks like yours would clean up well and even the top cover is intact, can`t see the airshield under the engine cover, they are often missing and a bit difficult to find in good condition.

Thanks...the airsheild is missing as is one of the claws, but other than that it's all there....it was my mates (his late father worked for the forestry dept) and, as he was moving house, they were having a clearout and I was helping to transport stuff.
This saw, along with various line trimmers and other tools were on their way to the dump, when I asked him could I try it as I had need of a big saw. It had sat in a damp, lean-too shed for twenty years and was completely seized.
I gradually got it back to life, but think he now regrets giving it to me.

Knowing the value is useful, as I've spent around 100 Euro on it to get it going (ignitions, flywheel pullers, recoil spring etc) so if he moans anymore, I'll offer him to buy me out (incl my labour and time) or offer him a couple of hundred for it as it will be a very useful saw for me in the coming months (plus I love old machinery).

 

[pioneerguy600]

Thanks...the airsheild is missing as is one of the claws, but other than that it's all there....it was my mates (his late father worked for the forestry dept) and, as he was moving house, they were having a clearout and I was helping to transport stuff.
This saw, along with various line trimmers and other tools were on their way to the dump, when I asked him could I try it as I had need of a big saw. It had sat in a damp, lean-too shed for twenty years and was completely seized.
I gradually got it back to life, but think he now regrets giving it to me.

Knowing the value is useful, as I've spent around 100 Euro on it to get it going (ignitions, flywheel pullers, recoil spring etc) so if he moans anymore, I'll offer him to buy me out (incl my labour and time) or offer him a couple of hundred for it as it will be a very useful saw for me in the coming months (plus I love old machinery).

Thing is I know they are more plentiful on your side of the ocean and I have seen a good number of them up for sale in the price range I mentioned, Most buyers are concerned about the physical condition, internal like piston,cylinder and bearings and if it has missing or broken bits that are often fairly difficult to find for vintage saws of that era, especially for over here. I wish you the best with getting the saw for a fair and decent price, they are worth investing some time and money into them, at least in my opinion.