Storm Removal

[bakerc8]

how many of you guys make a lot of money on storms like a lot of cash we have one here to night and i cant wait to get at it tomorrow to dangerous to go on a bucket tonight but have done a few so far but I'm in the truck waiting for it to stop down poring to work

 

[bakerc8]

my labtop died and i just got home all hands on deck i will be working till i get this hudge tree out of this ladies garadge and its not conected so i saved it till later because it wasent in there house. i got a cople calls on this gave estiments for ever today so i got to go any of u in ct having this mutch fun?

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

One can make a lot of money off of big storms, the key is to price with supply and demand of labor in your market.

If you will be working into OT all week long, then you need to price accordingly.

If you are pushing your regular clientel off for storm work, then you should be charging a premium.

If there is added risk then you should be charging a premium.

One way to do it is to tell people that you are working on a first come first served basis at $xxx/hr. Some storms I've worked on it has been $200/mhr, others $1000/crew hour (with crane).

Tell the people that this is your rate and at this time and you will get there soon if they will sign for time and equipment. If they cannot agree to the terms, you would be happy file their information and call them back when things slow down to see if they still need help.

I know many companies that paid off their debts and expanded operations due to storm work revenue. Some people think it is gouging, but to me it is just good buisness to charge what the market will bear. Especially if the guys are busting their butts and getting OT and bonuses out the ying-yang.

OT means higher W/C payments and claims, more wear and tear on equipment, more damage to them too, and often a need for more equipment whether new purchase, or rental.

 

[TimberMcPherson]

I have to say I dont agree. It is gouging.

Price gouging is a frequently pejorative reference to a seller's asking price that is much higher than what is seen as 'fair' under the circumstances. In precise, legal usage, it is the name of a felony that applies in some of the United States only during civil emergencies. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price gouging

So by your standard during storms you should pay your guys 5 times as much, you should pay over $20 per gallon for gas, or maybe emergency rooms if your brought in should up there rates when your desperate for treatment. "we would help you with the profuse bleeding but its going to be extra because we can see you really need it."
"Oh I see your kids really really sick, well the doctor wont help unless you agree to paying him $900 an hour and agree to any treatment and tests he comes up with"

Just because you have the opportunity to screw people, doesnt mean you should. due to circumstances charging more is fine, but when your charging over double, its just extortion.

 

[tree md]

I have to say I dont agree. It is gouging.

Price gouging is a frequently pejorative reference to a seller's asking price that is much higher than what is seen as 'fair' under the circumstances. In precise, legal usage, it is the name of a felony that applies in some of the United States only during civil emergencies. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price gouging

So by your standard during storms you should pay your guys 5 times as much, you should pay over $20 per gallon for gas, or maybe emergency rooms if your brought in should up there rates when your desperate for treatment. "we would help you with the profuse bleeding but its going to be extra because we can see you really need it."
"Oh I see your kids really really sick, well the doctor wont help unless you agree to paying him $900 an hour and agree to any treatment and tests he comes up with"

Just because you have the opportunity to screw people, doesnt mean you should. due to circumstances charging more is fine, but when your charging over double, its just extortion.

Can't say that I agree with that. Most storm damage is covered by insurance so your not charging the customer per say but the insurance company. I charge $250 an hour for emergency service wheather it is storm related or not. Of course there are other factors to consider when pricing. How great is the risk (storm work is a lot more unpredictable and risky), if it is something where there is the possibilty of having to use your own liability (like a tree on a house) you had better bill enough to cover your deductable at the very least.

In a storm situation the demand goes up and so does prices. This is true in any industry.

It is a very rare occaision when you can charge the doctors and lawyers what they charge you. They seem to have no qualms about charging high dollar for their services, why should you short sell your specialized service???

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Just because you have the opportunity to screw people, doesnt mean you should. due to circumstances charging more is fine, but when your charging over double, its just extortion.

How is it extortion if I say that the next guy will pay me $xxx, I'll put you in line if you are willing to pay the going rate, or call you back to see if you still need help when things get less hectic.

Gas prices go up on supply and demand, along with the market speculation triggering contract buying due to conflicts in Nigeria.

One way of looking at it is that people value the service more when no one else is answering the calls.

One guy I contracted with on a huge ice storm hired some neighbors to help answer the phone and fill out the lead contact information. He got the work because he spent more money to ensure (added lines too) that calls were answered promptly.

After a week or so of 12-14 hour days, time and a half does not really mean much to crews, you need more incentive.

Agree to the price, work hard, work safe, move on to the next job. I will often contract the bare minimum to mitigate struck-by and further property damage risk, leaving cleanup to the customer.

I'm sure it will always be irreconcilable with some people, one side sees it as good business, the other as immoral.

Now when two guys charge a little old lady $1000 to clear the driveway....

 

[Ax-man]

I have to agree with JPS.

Personnally I hate storm work and find it isn't all that profitable despite charging more than regular rates.

Working on mangled trees weather on a roof, hung in another tree, or uprooted is damn dangerious. Don't let anyone tell you any differerent either. You chances of getting bit by a saw increase expontially because gravity is always working against you. Cutting through splintered wood requires exrtreme caution and good judgement.Even a simple clean-up can be riskier than taking down a standing tree and is more ardious and aggrevating!!

Equipment takes more abuse than normal doing storm work. This will cut into your prememium storm rates real quick. So where is the gain in profits when this happens ????

What gets me is no one really wants to pay but they want you drop whatever your doing to take of them. For some reason that I have never been able to fathom is that a tree part laying on a lawn is a big emergency to get cleaned-up. The same goes for a hanger in a tree still attached and stuck in a crotch of another limb that isn't going anywhere.

Well maintained trees take storms pretty good. Owners of neglected trees seem to take the worst hits when the winds blow. These people don't have a clue what the going rates are for a good tree service and usually don't have the money to pay for what it is worth to begin with. They always think their insurance is going to pick -up the final tab. They find out it doesn't work that way. In times past I have in one way or another have gotten beat out of getting paid because of wind storms and have had to get down right nasty to collect if you can.

The real fun ones are when a tree goes over the property line and falls on a neighbors house or lands in the yard. No one wants to pay in situation like this. Each neighbors feels it is the responsibility of the other to take care of the bill.


We also had a two blows in last few weeks that resulted in extra work. I am going to scream if I hear the words." I have a tree on my roof." or " My tree is splitting". or " I have a limb that is hanging in my tree and is going to fall down and kill someone".

I am sure there are some out there that can make money off storms. I am not one of them. I make better money net wise doing my regular non storm work .

End of rant.

Larry

 

[046]

fact is storm work is extra hazardous... trees are downed in all sorts of dangerous positions.

branches half fallen under huge tensions... trees crushing property underneath... it takes an experienced aborist to understand forces... as to not get killed.

tell me why it's not OK to charge extra to compensate for hazardous conditions?

 

[reachtreeservi]

I have to agree with JPS.

Personally I hate storm work and find it isn't all that profitable despite charging more than regular rates.

Working on mangled trees weather on a roof, hung in another tree, or uprooted is damn dangerous. Don't let anyone tell you any different either. You chances of getting bite by a saw increase exponentially because gravity is always working against you. Cutting through splintered wood requires exrtreme caution and good judgment.Even a simple clean-up can be riskier than taking down a standing tree and is more arduous and aggravating!!

Equipment takes more abuse than normal doing storm work. This will cut into your premium storm rates real quick. So where is the gain in profits when this happens ????

What gets me is no one really wants to pay but they want you drop whatever your doing to take of them. For some reason that I have never been able to fathom is that a tree part laying on a lawn is a big emergency to get cleaned-up. The same goes for a hanger in a tree still attached and stuck in a crotch of another limb that isn't going anywhere.

Well maintained trees take storms pretty good. Owners of neglected trees seem to take the worst hits when the winds blow. These people don't have a clue what the going rates are for a good tree service and usually don't have the money to pay for what it is worth to begin with. They always think their insurance is going to pick -up the final tab. They find out it doesn't work that way. In times past I have in one way or another have gotten beat out of getting paid because of wind storms and have had to get down right nasty to collect if you can.

The real fun ones are when a tree goes over the property line and falls on a neighbors house or lands in the yard. No one wants to pay in situation like this. Each neighbors feels it is the responsibility of the other to take care of the bill.


We also had a two blows in last few weeks that resulted in extra work. I am going to scream if I hear the words." I have a tree on my roof." or " My tree is splitting". or " I have a limb that is hanging in my tree and is going to fall down and kill someone".

I am sure there are some out there that can make money off storms. I am not one of them. I make better money net wise doing my regular non storm work .

End of rant.

Larry

+1
True and well said.

I'd rather not do storm work at all.....
But if i have to , I start my bidding on storm work with my 1000 deductible, and then charge double my normal hourly rates + any difficulty or danger allowances.

If they don't like the prices, there are 3 pages of other tree services in the yellow pages in my area.

The homeowner can pay it or not.
That's what a free market economy is all about.

 

[treeseer]

"charging more is fine, but when your charging over double, its just extortion."

Timber I think triple is fair, but over that is hard to justify. Doesn't the scale slde depending on insurance/non etc.?
__________________

 

[046]

that depends entirely upon the situation... if storm removal requires operating in extremely hazardous conditions... like say in an ice storm with icy branches dropping all over...

let's say you've got a crew and gear to support... 1,000 miles from home... everyone is running off power gensets... with most business down from lack of power...

now tell me rates for that situation would not justify charging accordingly...

"charging more is fine, but when your charging over double, its just extortion."

Timber I think triple is fair, but over that is hard to justify. Doesn't the scale slde depending on insurance/non etc.?
__________________

 

[motoroilmccall]

I charge what I want, and that is usually about a hundred an hour if its just a wind storm. If its muddy from tons of rain, or if its after a snow storm like WNY had a few Octobers ago, it can be anywhere from $200 to $350 an hour or higher. It also depends on what I do with all the wood, if I need a crew, if they want it done right away (some people are willing to pay me to work after dark in the winter, but I tell them up front the latest I work is to 9, otherwise neighbors start to complain). Free market is just that, free, no regulations. Obviously, you take what you can get, and sometimes with this work its feast or famine, and I only do it on the side.

Basically, I bid the job for what I think I can get. I'll change my prices a lot depending on what neighborhood I'm in, if its a high end neighborhood with a lot of money, and they want it done now, with everything hauled away, I'm gonna make a good buck. If I get into a lower income area, I'll do the job for darn near nothing, but it'll wait until the major cleanup is done, and often times I'll use the homeowners as grunts, I'll just cut, they'll drag and clean up after I leave, but I charge enough to cover fuel costs, transportation, and basically enough so it doesn't cost me anything. If its a friend or family, I'll do the job for free.

 

[treemandan]

I charge what I want, and that is usually about a hundred an hour if its just a wind storm. If its muddy from tons of rain, or if its after a snow storm like WNY had a few Octobers ago, it can be anywhere from $200 to $350 an hour or higher. It also depends on what I do with all the wood, if I need a crew, if they want it done right away (some people are willing to pay me to work after dark in the winter, but I tell them up front the latest I work is to 9, otherwise neighbors start to complain). Free market is just that, free, no regulations. Obviously, you take what you can get, and sometimes with this work its feast or famine, and I only do it on the side.

Basically, I bid the job for what I think I can get. I'll change my prices a lot depending on what neighborhood I'm in, if its a high end neighborhood with a lot of money, and they want it done now, with everything hauled away, I'm gonna make a good buck. If I get into a lower income area, I'll do the job for darn near nothing, but it'll wait until the major cleanup is done, and often times I'll use the homeowners as grunts, I'll just cut, they'll drag and clean up after I leave, but I charge enough to cover fuel costs, transportation, and basically enough so it doesn't cost me anything. If its a friend or family, I'll do the job for free.

Sums it up in the first 5 words that it does, basically. One thing I do know ( and anybody that don't know should kiss my sack for saying this) is- If you have clients that call you, that you work for routinley, that dial your number right off the bat and they realize you are not being sympathetic they might see that as an insult. Its not like when your car breaks down this business.
Storm clean up around here is handled by the homeowner, the ins pays for what the tree broke and will give 500 towards clean up of any tree. If you have a tree on your house and through the roof that came from your neighbors guess what? It's an act of God the neighbor is not responsible (by law) and you go to your ins with it and pay your deductible.
Some do carry better Ins though but then I send the quote straight to the ins co just to F with them

 

[treemandan]

fact is storm work is extra hazardous... trees are downed in all sorts of dangerous positions.

branches half fallen under huge tensions... trees crushing property underneath... it takes an experienced aborist to understand forces... as to not get killed.

tell me why it's not OK to charge extra to compensate for hazardous conditions?

It is Ok but the best thing to do is to let them know you are to help them in the bad time as best you can. I think its best to put a estimate rather than a quote and see what you can do. If it looks bad , tell em it might be but if you are done and it went well cut em some slack.
I try to save my people the money... this time. Yup 300 for an expert roughneck to wrangle the cottonwood offf the roof 7 am Sat morn, done by 8Hell, some storm clean ups I have been on for days. I love a camp out.

 

[tree md]

+1
True and well said.

I'd rather not do storm work at all.....
But if i have to , I start my bidding on storm work with my 1000 deductible, and then charge double my normal hourly rates + any difficulty or danger allowances.

If they don't like the prices, there are 3 pages of other tree services in the yellow pages in my area.

The homeowner can pay it or not.
That's what a free market economy is all about.

+2

I normally bill $125 an hour at my regular rate, $250 is double rate., This is arborist 101. I learned that the first year out.

I agree, storms are a curse. Remember there is always the lull after the storm...

 

[tree md]

It is Ok but the best thing to do is to let them know you are to help them in the bad time as best you can. I think its best to put a estimate rather than a quote and see what you can do. If it looks bad , tell em it might be but if you are done and it went well cut em some slack.
I try to save my people the money... this time. Yup 300 for an expert roughneck to wrangle the cottonwood offf the roof 7 am Sat morn, done by 8Hell, some storm clean ups I have been on for days. I love a camp out.

Buddy, in the big storms you don't break out the saw for less than $500 (working at your level) ...

Quote??? they are just happy to see a crew show up...

If its in your area, take care of your existing customer base first (and find out what insurance will pay) they will pay $500 for emergency driveway clearence or to cut a car out. Take care of the ones who put you in business first and everything else will work out...

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

If its in your area, take care of your existing customer base first

So true, and do not wait for them to call. Go out and check your best accounts ASAP. Especially if it is a big area storm, communications are often down and you will not be getting any contacts for a few days. As you work your good clients, the neighbors will be coming for you.

Being fair in these instances is similar cost for similar work. If your client is just clearing the drive, but the neighbor has hazard work, tell them that there is a risk premium built in.

If the little old lady in the 40's era cape next door needs a branch off the roof, and the driveway cleaned for 20 minutes, then cutting her some slack often creates good will. I've often negotiated cash for the ground crew on these little jobs that are more paperwork labor.

If one uses the noggin and the heart, the storm can help facilitate building a long term clientel.

Refering back to my above postsings, you do not have to do everything sown th the fine raking on the first trip. Remove the hazard and schedule the hangers and stubs for when you can charge less.

In my experiance, most people are happy to pay up for the guy who shows up and works safe.

Remember there is always the lull after the storm...

And quite often we are thankful for it.

If it looks bad , tell em it might be but if you are done and it went well cut em some slack.

This is why I prefer T&M for hazard work, often I will put a cap on the cost

" The company will do this that and the other thing for a cost not to exceed $xxxx. Logs will be left at random lengths, moved out of our way to work, the client will perform all fine raking, cleanup turf repair."

"The company will remove hanging and broken branches from the tree to mitigate hazard leaving all debris in yard, cut and piled for client to dispose of. The company will do no cleanup that is not necessary to maintain the worksite. "

 

[jomoco]

I know many companies that paid off their debts and expanded operations due to storm work revenue. Some people think it is gouging, but to me it is just good buisness to charge what the market will bear.

After reading that second sentence, like Timber, I found myself in strong disagreement with you JPS.

Having done lots of extremely hazardous emergency work for PacBell during the storm itself, with cranes, floodlights and the power co grabbing the power poles to keep them from snapping until I got the tree off the spans, etc, the thought of gouging either a residential or business client during an emergency is bad business, and you'd be surprised how fast word of opportunistic gouging and other scurvy business behavior can travel through the grapevine of the decision makers that call you at 2:00am in the morning.

You're cutting your own throat and demeaning your companies reputation with such behavior.

Having set storm rates is often a prerequisite for commercial utility storm work.

It's called good business ethics, and it's very good for your long term business prospects and reputation.

Think about how dangerous what you're doing at say 100-200 bucks a man hour is to what a marine in Falluja getting shot at is doing, and being paid. The same is true for smoke jumpers fighting fires for the state govt.

Take a reasonable justifiable profit during emergency work and double the safety methods and caution while performing the work, bring other professionals with specialized expertise and equipment to increase safety even further and spread the wealth into pockets other than your own.

jomoco

 

[PTS]

One can make a lot of money off of big storms, the key is to price with supply and demand of labor in your market.

If you will be working into OT all week long, then you need to price accordingly.

If you are pushing your regular clientel off for storm work, then you should be charging a premium.

If there is added risk then you should be charging a premium.

One way to do it is to tell people that you are working on a first come first served basis at $xxx/hr. Some storms I've worked on it has been $200/mhr, others $1000/crew hour (with crane).

Tell the people that this is your rate and at this time and you will get there soon if they will sign for time and equipment. If they cannot agree to the terms, you would be happy file their information and call them back when things slow down to see if they still need help.

I know many companies that paid off their debts and expanded operations due to storm work revenue. Some people think it is gouging, but to me it is just good buisness to charge what the market will bear. Especially if the guys are busting their butts and getting OT and bonuses out the ying-yang.

OT means higher W/C payments and claims, more wear and tear on equipment, more damage to them too, and often a need for more equipment whether new purchase, or rental.

I don't think I could have said it better myself. Compare this to say getting a new roof. Contractors charge $X per square and the rate is a lot higher after the storm due to supply and demand. Building materials are the same way. Price of lumber goes through the roof after a good hurricane, think back to 2005 and Katrina. Make hay when you can. I'm with ya JPS

 

[PTS]

The thing to remember when dealing with risk is that once you touch the tree and start working on it and it roles for example punches in a window or maybe a wall, you are responsible. So building in a risk factor is only good business.