Thinning bar oil in cold weather?
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Kneejerk Bombas
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I use bar oil.
The saw is only cold more a couple minutes, so at that point thinner oils would work poorly. That said, a lot of guys say you can run just about anything without problems.
I just know cutting attachments are expensive and bar oil is cheap.
The saw is only cold more a couple minutes, so at that point thinner oils would work poorly. That said, a lot of guys say you can run just about anything without problems.
I just know cutting attachments are expensive and bar oil is cheap.
SilverBlue
Addicted to ArboristSite
Engine oil contains toxic additives, so why are you hurting the environment? There’s enough oil lost on our roads, we don't need more in our woods.
Bar oil comes in three grades anyways, light medium and heavy.
Bar oil comes in three grades anyways, light medium and heavy.
Curtis James
ArboristSite Operative
i've never even thought or heard of thinning. it takes only a few extra seconds to fill. patience.
Ax-man
Addicted to ArboristSite
I put my oil container in the cab of the truck right next to the heater on the floorboard. When you get to the job it pours just like it does in summer.
I have heard of people using diesel fuel to thin bar oil, that idea has no appeal to me though.
I have heard of people using diesel fuel to thin bar oil, that idea has no appeal to me though.
preach it
ArboristSite Operative
We can't get winter grade here. So, I thin it out with kerosene until it is the vicosity that I want. I was cutting large cottonwoods today. It was 15-20F degrees here. The summer grade oil was way too thick, the oil pump in the saw will wear or break in time using oil too thick. Using kerosene the bar oil is thinner but it keeps its tackiness. It works for me.
Dan F
ArboristSite Operative
I can't believe you can't get winter oil in ND... Go to your local Stihl dealer and have them order you a case. If they can't do it, don't go back.
The Stihl winter oil comes in a blue jug, unless they have changed colors on me in the last couple of years...
Dan
The Stihl winter oil comes in a blue jug, unless they have changed colors on me in the last couple of years...
Dan
I bought a couple of cases of bar and chain oil made by Alco on sale for about $2.50 a gallon. Didn't say what grade is is, but can hardly pour it out of the jug when cold. Winter grade has to be thinned down somehow by the companies who offer it, so I assume they add a lighter oil. Will try to find out what they use. Yeah, organic oil would be better for the environment and I think it is about $20 a gallon.
SilverBlue
Addicted to ArboristSite
If you can not order winter grade from your dealer then file a complain with Stihl or whoever on the web and they will notify the distributor for your area.if you use Kerosene then plan on replacing plastic parts in your oil system.
SilverBlue
Addicted to ArboristSite
Brian kerosene is an oil distillate, kerosene is also contaminated with toxic substances unless you can find pure kerosene –which is rare and I doubt any chainsaw operator will look for. Now before I have to squirl slap you… do some research on toxic substances in kerosene.
Stumper
One Man Band
FWIW, My Husky manual recommends using kerosene as lube thinner. So SB , you are either full of beans on this or need to throw all that Stihl junk away and buy orange fantastic plastic.
Oops! After posting I had second thoughts and had to go check. The Husky manual I have doesn't mention kreosene, It is in a John Deere (Echo years) Manual, a Poulan Manual and in the Chainsaw Service Manual (the big'n published by Clymer)
Oops! After posting I had second thoughts and had to go check. The Husky manual I have doesn't mention kreosene, It is in a John Deere (Echo years) Manual, a Poulan Manual and in the Chainsaw Service Manual (the big'n published by Clymer)
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SilverBlue
Addicted to ArboristSite
So you haven't done any research huh?
Well no comment's from the peanut gallery before you do the work.
Well no comment's from the peanut gallery before you do the work.
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
Silver Blue,
In all fairness, you made the point about kerosene damaging saw parts. You're the one who should be able to back up what you say with documentation. That's how discussions work.
So, if you've done the research, I'd love to read whatever you could link for me.
I hear a lot of chatter about how fragile tree tools are. Come on, they're just plastic and metal.
Toxic stuff in kerosene? What's the LD50?
This search just took me about twenty seconds:
http://www.spectro-oils.com/msds-sx.htm
Toxic additives to motor oil? At what level is there toxicity?
Kero, or diesel in a pinch, works for thinning.
Tom
In all fairness, you made the point about kerosene damaging saw parts. You're the one who should be able to back up what you say with documentation. That's how discussions work.
So, if you've done the research, I'd love to read whatever you could link for me.
I hear a lot of chatter about how fragile tree tools are. Come on, they're just plastic and metal.
Toxic stuff in kerosene? What's the LD50?
This search just took me about twenty seconds:
http://www.spectro-oils.com/msds-sx.htm
Toxic additives to motor oil? At what level is there toxicity?
Kero, or diesel in a pinch, works for thinning.
Tom
SilverBlue
Addicted to ArboristSite
Tom, in all fairness most people don't know what is in a product that they use-but they blindly recommend such with ignorance. Kerosene is not just kerosene, it's thinned with solvents. And motor oil is not just oil either, it contains a fair percentage of additives. You want the LD50 for which chemical in kerosene? Chances are high that studies are not available.
Now many here claim that they care about trees (which goes hand in hand with the environment they grow in). Now let’s see how well they do.
A few keywords:
Volatile organic compounds
Naphtha
Benzene
Now many here claim that they care about trees (which goes hand in hand with the environment they grow in). Now let’s see how well they do.
A few keywords:
Volatile organic compounds
Naphtha
Benzene
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
SB,
Just as I hit the "Submit Button" for my above post I thought, I wonder how long it would take to get an LD50 for kero. With a few keystrokes and about twenty seconds I was back here to post the thread with the MSDS for kero. Sure enough, there's an LD50 for humans, and rabbits. Now if I can figure out what the bunnies are doing with kero...[Actually, I do know]
The object of my post isn't to get smarmy or get into a flame war. When a good dialog gets going, everyone should be able to back up what they say with documentation if they say something as a fact. Otherwise, own it. Say that you think, feel, have been told, understand, etc. Don't get your slip ruffled, educate us. What's going on with kero that we should be aware of?
Tom
Just as I hit the "Submit Button" for my above post I thought, I wonder how long it would take to get an LD50 for kero. With a few keystrokes and about twenty seconds I was back here to post the thread with the MSDS for kero. Sure enough, there's an LD50 for humans, and rabbits. Now if I can figure out what the bunnies are doing with kero...[Actually, I do know]
The object of my post isn't to get smarmy or get into a flame war. When a good dialog gets going, everyone should be able to back up what they say with documentation if they say something as a fact. Otherwise, own it. Say that you think, feel, have been told, understand, etc. Don't get your slip ruffled, educate us. What's going on with kero that we should be aware of?
Tom
SilverBlue
Addicted to ArboristSite
Take the peanuts out of your ears Brian, as posted above, it's the solvents. What do you think kerosene is thinned with alcohol?
Stumper
One Man Band
SB, Come on man-give us a source for your claim. I don't know where this is coming from. Kerosene IS A SOLVENT. Most petroleum distillates are. 90 wt EP gear lube is a solvent for asphalt. So are all of the progressively lighter distillates. I don't find it inconceivable that some very light distillates are added to heavier base stocks to come up with a standardized grade of kerosene but what is your evidence and, more importantly, what does it matter? Gasoline is pretty nasty but occassional skin contact is not a big health risk. Much less so with Varsol or mineral spirits. Kerosene has long been used topically to treat certain skin disorders. What is the big deal?
SilverBlue
Addicted to ArboristSite
Geez Stumper, are you talking about the rare pure grade kerosene or the typical marketed kerosene with additives (read impurities to those with dysfunctional squirl syndrome). Which are we referring to-Naphtha? Benzene? Or a whole list of Volatile Organic Compounds?
Not only are certain additives found in “kerosene” toxic, they also degrade plastic parts.
What source do you want? I have scientific papers with abstracts, how many sources would you like me to pull?
1. Osler W. The hospital and the college (address delivered in 1903 to the New York Academy of Medicine). In: The Collected Essays of William Osler (McGovern JP, Roland CG eds). Birmingham, AL:Classics of Medicine Library, 1985;2:239-254.
2. Silbergeld EK, Fowler BA, eds. Mechanisms of chemical induced porphyrinopathies. Ann NY Acad Sci 514:1-350 (1987).
3. Fowler BK, Oskarsson A, Woods JS. Metal- and metalloid-induced porphyrinurias: relationships to cell injury. Ann NY Acad Sci 514:172-182 (1987).
4. Rimington C. Experimental porphyria in rats induced by chlorinated benzenes. Biochem Pharmacol 12:1387-1397 (1963).
5. Bickers D, Miller L, Kappas A. Exacerbation of hereditary hepatic porphyria by surreptitious ingestion of an usual provocative agent--mouthwash. N Engl J Med 292:1115-1116 (1975).
6. McConnachie P, Zahalsky AC. Immune alterations in humans exposed to the termiticide technical chlordane. Arch Env Health 47:295-301 (1992).
7. Broughton A, Thrasher JD, Gard Z. Immunological evaluation of four arc welders exposed to fumes from ignited polyurethane (isocyanate) foam. Am J Ind Med 13:463-472 (1988).
8. Denkhaus W, von Steldem D, Botzenhardt U, Konietzho H. Lymphocyte subpopulations in solvent-exposed workers. Int Arch Occup Environ Health 57:109-115 (1986).
9. Byers V, Levin AS, Ozonoff DM, Baldwin RW. Association between clinical symptoms and lymphocyte abnormalities in a population with chronic domestic exposure to industrial solvent-contaminated water supply and a high incidence of leukemia. Cancer Immunol Immunother 27:77-81 (1988).
10. Haustein UF, Ziegler V. Environmentally induced systemic sclerosis-like disorders. Int J Derm 24:147-151 (1985).
11. Thrasher J, Broughton A, Madison R. Immune activation and autoantibodies in humans with long-term inhalation exposure to formaldehyde. Arch Environ Health 45:217-223 (1990).
12. Madison R, Broughton A, Thrasher JD. Immunologic biomarkers associated with an acute exposure to exothermic byproducts of an urea formaldehyde spill. Environ Health Perspect 94:219-223 (1991).
13. Editorial. Silicone implants and systemic immunologic disease. Toxicol Ind Health 8:231-237 (1992).
14. Broughton A. Chronic health effects and immunologic alterations associated with exposure to pesticides. Comments Toxicol 4:59-71 (1990).
15. Middaugh DA, Pinney SM, Linz DH. Sick building syndrome. J Occup Med 34:1197-1203 (1992).
16. Daniell W, Couser WG, Rosenstock L. Occupational solvent exposure and glomerulonephritis. JAMA 259:2280-2283 (1988).
17. Bombassei G, Kaplan AA. The association between hydrocarbon exposure and anti-glomerular basement membrane antibody-mediated disease (Goodpastures syndrome). Am J Ind Med 21:141-153 (1992).
18. Safran M, Paul TL, Roti E, Braverman LE. Environmental factors affecting autoimmune thyroid disease. Endocrinol Metab Clin North Am 16:327-341 (1987).
19. Street J. Pesticides and the immune system. In: Immunologic Considerations in Toxicology (Sharma R, ed). Boca Raton, FL:CRC Press, 1981;49.
20. Press R, Peebles CL, Kumagai Y, Ochs RL, Tan EM. Antinuclear autoantibodies in women with silicone breast implants. Lancet 340:1304-1307 (1992).
21. Thrasher JD, Madison R, Broughton A, Gard Z. Building-related illness and antibodies to albumin, conjugates of albumin, toluene, diisocyanates, and trimellitic anhydride. Am J Ind Med 15:187-195 (1989).
22. Slade M, Simmons RL, Yunis E, Greenberg LJ. Immunodepression after major surgery in normal patients. Surgery 78:363-372 (1975).
23. Tonneson E, Huttel MS, Christensen NJ, Schmitz O. Natural killer cell activity in patients undergoing upper abdominal surgery: relationship to the endocrine stress response. Acta Anaesthesiol Scand 28(6):654-660 (1984).
24. Heuser G. Diagnostic markers in chemical immunotoxicology and neurotoxicology. J Occup Med Toxicol 1:v-x (1992).
25. Matikainen E, Juntunen J. Autonomic nervous system dysfunction in workers. J Neurol Neurosurg Psychiatry 48:1021-1024 (1985).
26. Morrow L, Ryan CM, Hodgson MJ, Robin N. Alterations in cognitive and psychological functioning after organic solvent exposure. J Occup Med 32:444-450 (1990).
27. Morrow L, Ryan CM, Hodgson MJ, Robin N. Risk factors associated with persistence of neuropsychological deficits in persons with organic solvent exposure. J Nerv Ment Dis 179:540-545 (1991).
28. Gyntelberg F, Vesterhauge S, Fog P, Isager H, Zillstorff K. Acquired intolerance to organic solvents and results of vestibular testing. Am J Ind Med 9:363-370 (1986).
29. Morata T, Dunn DE, Sieber WK. Effects of occupational exposure to organic solvents and noise on hearing. Scand J Work Environ Health 19:245-254 (1993).
30. Linz D, deGarmo P, Morton W, Weins A, Coull B, Maricle R. Organic solvent-induced encephalopathy in industrial painters. J Occup Med 28:119-125 (1986).
31. Savage EP, Keefe TJ, Mounce LM, Lewis JA, Heaton RK, Burcar PJ. Chronic neurological sequelae of acute organophosphate pesticide poisoning. Arch Environ Health 43:38-45 (1988).
32. Jusic A. Anticholinesterase pesticides of organophosphorus type: electromyographic, neurological and psychological studies in occupationally exposed workers. In: Behavioral Toxicology: Early Detection of Occupational Hazards (Xintras C, Johnson BL, deGrott I, eds). NIOSH 74-126. Washington:National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, 1986;182-190.
33. Troster A, Ruff R. Neuropsychological sequelae of exposure to the chlorinated hydrocarbon solvents trichloroethylene and trichloroethane. Arch Clin Neuropsy 5:31-47 (1990).
34. Hartlage L, Johnson D, Burns T, Williams B. Neurotoxicological screening in community settings. Arch Clin Neuropsy 9:139-140 (1994).
35. Doty R, Deems DA, Frye RE, Pelberg R, Shapiro A. Olfactory sensitivity, nasal resistance, and autonomic function in patients with multiple chemical sensitivity. Arch Otolaryngol Head Neck Surg 114:1422-1427 (1988).
36. Ryan CM, Morrow LA, Hodgson M. Cacosmia and neurobehavioral dysfunction associated with occupational exposures to mixtures of organic solvents. Amer J Psychiatry 145:1442-1445 (1988).
37. Rosenthal N, Cameron CL. Exaggerated sensitivity to an organophosphate pesticide. Am J Psychiatry 148:2 (1991).
38. Cone J, Sult TA. Acquired intolerance to solvents following pesticide/solvent exposure in a building: a new group of workers at risk for multiple chemical sensitivities. Toxicol Ind Health 8:29-39 (1992).
39. Broughton A. Antibodies and altered cell immunity in formaldehyde-exposed humans. Comments Toxicol 2:155-174 (1988).
Not only are certain additives found in “kerosene” toxic, they also degrade plastic parts.
What source do you want? I have scientific papers with abstracts, how many sources would you like me to pull?
1. Osler W. The hospital and the college (address delivered in 1903 to the New York Academy of Medicine). In: The Collected Essays of William Osler (McGovern JP, Roland CG eds). Birmingham, AL:Classics of Medicine Library, 1985;2:239-254.
2. Silbergeld EK, Fowler BA, eds. Mechanisms of chemical induced porphyrinopathies. Ann NY Acad Sci 514:1-350 (1987).
3. Fowler BK, Oskarsson A, Woods JS. Metal- and metalloid-induced porphyrinurias: relationships to cell injury. Ann NY Acad Sci 514:172-182 (1987).
4. Rimington C. Experimental porphyria in rats induced by chlorinated benzenes. Biochem Pharmacol 12:1387-1397 (1963).
5. Bickers D, Miller L, Kappas A. Exacerbation of hereditary hepatic porphyria by surreptitious ingestion of an usual provocative agent--mouthwash. N Engl J Med 292:1115-1116 (1975).
6. McConnachie P, Zahalsky AC. Immune alterations in humans exposed to the termiticide technical chlordane. Arch Env Health 47:295-301 (1992).
7. Broughton A, Thrasher JD, Gard Z. Immunological evaluation of four arc welders exposed to fumes from ignited polyurethane (isocyanate) foam. Am J Ind Med 13:463-472 (1988).
8. Denkhaus W, von Steldem D, Botzenhardt U, Konietzho H. Lymphocyte subpopulations in solvent-exposed workers. Int Arch Occup Environ Health 57:109-115 (1986).
9. Byers V, Levin AS, Ozonoff DM, Baldwin RW. Association between clinical symptoms and lymphocyte abnormalities in a population with chronic domestic exposure to industrial solvent-contaminated water supply and a high incidence of leukemia. Cancer Immunol Immunother 27:77-81 (1988).
10. Haustein UF, Ziegler V. Environmentally induced systemic sclerosis-like disorders. Int J Derm 24:147-151 (1985).
11. Thrasher J, Broughton A, Madison R. Immune activation and autoantibodies in humans with long-term inhalation exposure to formaldehyde. Arch Environ Health 45:217-223 (1990).
12. Madison R, Broughton A, Thrasher JD. Immunologic biomarkers associated with an acute exposure to exothermic byproducts of an urea formaldehyde spill. Environ Health Perspect 94:219-223 (1991).
13. Editorial. Silicone implants and systemic immunologic disease. Toxicol Ind Health 8:231-237 (1992).
14. Broughton A. Chronic health effects and immunologic alterations associated with exposure to pesticides. Comments Toxicol 4:59-71 (1990).
15. Middaugh DA, Pinney SM, Linz DH. Sick building syndrome. J Occup Med 34:1197-1203 (1992).
16. Daniell W, Couser WG, Rosenstock L. Occupational solvent exposure and glomerulonephritis. JAMA 259:2280-2283 (1988).
17. Bombassei G, Kaplan AA. The association between hydrocarbon exposure and anti-glomerular basement membrane antibody-mediated disease (Goodpastures syndrome). Am J Ind Med 21:141-153 (1992).
18. Safran M, Paul TL, Roti E, Braverman LE. Environmental factors affecting autoimmune thyroid disease. Endocrinol Metab Clin North Am 16:327-341 (1987).
19. Street J. Pesticides and the immune system. In: Immunologic Considerations in Toxicology (Sharma R, ed). Boca Raton, FL:CRC Press, 1981;49.
20. Press R, Peebles CL, Kumagai Y, Ochs RL, Tan EM. Antinuclear autoantibodies in women with silicone breast implants. Lancet 340:1304-1307 (1992).
21. Thrasher JD, Madison R, Broughton A, Gard Z. Building-related illness and antibodies to albumin, conjugates of albumin, toluene, diisocyanates, and trimellitic anhydride. Am J Ind Med 15:187-195 (1989).
22. Slade M, Simmons RL, Yunis E, Greenberg LJ. Immunodepression after major surgery in normal patients. Surgery 78:363-372 (1975).
23. Tonneson E, Huttel MS, Christensen NJ, Schmitz O. Natural killer cell activity in patients undergoing upper abdominal surgery: relationship to the endocrine stress response. Acta Anaesthesiol Scand 28(6):654-660 (1984).
24. Heuser G. Diagnostic markers in chemical immunotoxicology and neurotoxicology. J Occup Med Toxicol 1:v-x (1992).
25. Matikainen E, Juntunen J. Autonomic nervous system dysfunction in workers. J Neurol Neurosurg Psychiatry 48:1021-1024 (1985).
26. Morrow L, Ryan CM, Hodgson MJ, Robin N. Alterations in cognitive and psychological functioning after organic solvent exposure. J Occup Med 32:444-450 (1990).
27. Morrow L, Ryan CM, Hodgson MJ, Robin N. Risk factors associated with persistence of neuropsychological deficits in persons with organic solvent exposure. J Nerv Ment Dis 179:540-545 (1991).
28. Gyntelberg F, Vesterhauge S, Fog P, Isager H, Zillstorff K. Acquired intolerance to organic solvents and results of vestibular testing. Am J Ind Med 9:363-370 (1986).
29. Morata T, Dunn DE, Sieber WK. Effects of occupational exposure to organic solvents and noise on hearing. Scand J Work Environ Health 19:245-254 (1993).
30. Linz D, deGarmo P, Morton W, Weins A, Coull B, Maricle R. Organic solvent-induced encephalopathy in industrial painters. J Occup Med 28:119-125 (1986).
31. Savage EP, Keefe TJ, Mounce LM, Lewis JA, Heaton RK, Burcar PJ. Chronic neurological sequelae of acute organophosphate pesticide poisoning. Arch Environ Health 43:38-45 (1988).
32. Jusic A. Anticholinesterase pesticides of organophosphorus type: electromyographic, neurological and psychological studies in occupationally exposed workers. In: Behavioral Toxicology: Early Detection of Occupational Hazards (Xintras C, Johnson BL, deGrott I, eds). NIOSH 74-126. Washington:National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, 1986;182-190.
33. Troster A, Ruff R. Neuropsychological sequelae of exposure to the chlorinated hydrocarbon solvents trichloroethylene and trichloroethane. Arch Clin Neuropsy 5:31-47 (1990).
34. Hartlage L, Johnson D, Burns T, Williams B. Neurotoxicological screening in community settings. Arch Clin Neuropsy 9:139-140 (1994).
35. Doty R, Deems DA, Frye RE, Pelberg R, Shapiro A. Olfactory sensitivity, nasal resistance, and autonomic function in patients with multiple chemical sensitivity. Arch Otolaryngol Head Neck Surg 114:1422-1427 (1988).
36. Ryan CM, Morrow LA, Hodgson M. Cacosmia and neurobehavioral dysfunction associated with occupational exposures to mixtures of organic solvents. Amer J Psychiatry 145:1442-1445 (1988).
37. Rosenthal N, Cameron CL. Exaggerated sensitivity to an organophosphate pesticide. Am J Psychiatry 148:2 (1991).
38. Cone J, Sult TA. Acquired intolerance to solvents following pesticide/solvent exposure in a building: a new group of workers at risk for multiple chemical sensitivities. Toxicol Ind Health 8:29-39 (1992).
39. Broughton A. Antibodies and altered cell immunity in formaldehyde-exposed humans. Comments Toxicol 2:155-174 (1988).
