Thoughts on milling saws?

[woodsrunner]

I'm looking to move up to a bigger saw for milling. Currently using my 395 with a 42 inch bar. On my GB mill that gives me about 34 inches of cut. I have alot of big chunks I want to mill into slabs. (Not looking to cut lumber or boards just full width slabs.) I want to be able to run a 60 or 72 inch bar. I have had good success with the 395 and the 42 inch bar but its about at its limit with that setup IMO. I'm considering all options. Currently I'm thinking 076, 090, 088, 084, 3120. I'm a husky guy, but, there are things I don't like about the 3120 (fixed jet carb). What is parts availability like for the 076 and 090? What would be reasonable prices for these saws used but in good condition? Is the 090 worth the extra cost? I have a GB double ended mill so even the 2 powerhead setup is up for consideration. Species are all hardwoods ( walnut, cherry, chestnut oak, white oak, red oak, poplar, hard maple). These are salvage logs and stumps and butt cutoffs from a recent timber sale I made. Some are really big (4+ ft diameter, one walnut stump is 6 ft across), some just average.
Let me know your experiences and best guesses folks. Thanks in advance.

Scott

 

[ShoerFast]

Running a duel power-head set up comes to mind?

 

[woodsrunner]

Yes the double powerhead is definitely on the list. I have been discouraged by some about this approach but I still think it makes a lot of sense. However, I can't seem to find anyone who has actually done that and can tell me how it really works. i.e. are (2) 395's going to give me 14.2 usable hp? Or just something more than (1) 3120?
I think 2 smaller saws would be a lot more useful than 1 big saw when the mill isn't in use.

Scott

 

[woodsrunner]

Couple of pictures of the type of stuff I have to mill. the walnut stump is 6 ft by 4 ft, the chestnut oak log is about 11 ft long and 50 inches at the butt end.

Scott

 

[BobL]

Some good questions there WS.

I'm looking to move up to a bigger saw for milling. Currently using my 395 with a 42 inch bar. On my GB mill that gives me about 34 inches of cut. I have alot of big chunks I want to mill into slabs. (Not looking to cut lumber or boards just full width slabs.) I want to be able to run a 60 or 72 inch bar. I have had good success with the 395 and the 42 inch bar but its about at its limit with that setup IMO.

Yep that's about a fair limit for the 395, as it would be for a 660.

Currently I'm thinking 076, 090, 088, 084, 3120.

Good thinking

I'm a husky guy, but, there are things I don't like about the 3120 (fixed jet carb).

That and the outboard clutch is what bug me about this otherwise mighty fine machine. I also reckon the bar bolts are to dinky - but that is just me!

What is parts availability like for the 076 and 090?

090 has parts available as third party parts. There are still plenty of spare 076s around but unless a 3rd party pick up that model these will be increasingly less common in the future.

What would be reasonable prices for these saws used but in good condition?

That is a "how long is a piece of string" question as there are variable definitions of used and good. A good saw to me means that nothing is missing and there is no immediate mechanical work needed on it to start milling and don't worry about the cosmetics. But to some else this might mean "average". If you search around on this and the CS forum you will see what other people are paying for these saws. I paid US$300 at the time for my 076 with a 30" bar and it has milled around 70 logs since I have had it. A thread discussing my 880 and what others paid for various 880s and 84s is here.

Is the 090 worth the extra cost?

I can't really say as I have never run one. All I know is my 880 with the 64" rails and bar already weighs 72lb which is enough for me.

I have a GB double ended mill so even the 2 powerhead setup is up for consideration.

It depends whether you are going to have help. I see a double powerhead as a 2 person operation and I don't want to be reliant on another person for my milling jollies!

 

[Can8ianTimber]

Woodsrunner

I am by no means a pro but I have a 3120 and I have really enjoyed it. I used to have a Stihl 066 and there is no comparison so I understand your desire to step up a size.

One questions I was going ask and I guess this is as good a place as any, Does it make sence to step up to a 090 for milling. I eventually want to step up to double ended like you are talking about. Maybe an 8' bar for mostly hardwoods.

Has anyone here milled with a 090 and a 088 or 3120 that could tell the difference. My guess is that it is not only the increase in CC's but the general beefyness of the saw. On the other had the 090 is going to be more costly to fix. Can anyone shed some light on this.

 

[BobL]

Has anyone here milled with a 090 and a 088 or 3120 that could tell the difference.

There is one Aussie guy, can't remember if it is on this forum or another, that reckons he can tell the difference esp on wider logs.

My guess is that it is not only the increase in CC's but the general beefyness of the saw. On the other had the 090 is going to be more costly to fix.

Not necessarily since 3rd part parts are available for this saw.

 

[woodsrunner]

I've been pretty busy the few days and haven't had time to get back to say thanks for the replies.

My problem is I sometimes tend to overthink these kind of things. I think I would like the 090 as a milling saw but I also think they are pretty overpriced these days (especially for something as old as they are). Economics does play into this. Parts availability is an issue as well. Utility also is an issue. Why pay as much for an 090 which is old, and parts supply may be shaky when I can buy another 395 new for about the same price and have excellent parts availability and another big saw thats pretty useful off the mill? Of course that pushes me to the double powerhead system.

I'll keep thinking and maybe I'll come up with the answer for me.

Scott

 

[Brmorgan]

PM sent re: 084.

An average 090 will be absolutely spanked by a 3120/084/088 in narrower wood (relatively speaking) just due to the increased chain speed - I'd say probably up to 3-4 feet depending on wood species. On the other hand an 090 will chew through 6 feet of wood almost as fast as 4 feet where it would slow the newer saws down considerably. I've been considering trying a 9/10/11-pin 3/8 sprocket on my 090 to see how this affects the chain speed and overall cut speed, but I've also read that many of these non-standard sprockets aren't really up to the task of hard milling duty. There's also the ergonomics factor of using an older saw, like Bob pointed out. Not just the extra weight, but there's also no antivibe on most 090s, and yes, it hurts like hell the day after milling with mine sometimes!

 

[woodsrunner]

Thanks for the reply Brad. Thats the kind of info I need to make a good decision.
Scott

 

[Brmorgan]

No problem. I should say though, that even with the discomfort I highly recommend experiencing cutting with an 090 sometime. It's like riding the biggest, baddest Harley ever made.

 

[BobL]

I've been considering trying a 9/10/11-pin 3/8 sprocket on my 090 to see how this affects the chain speed and overall cut speed, but I've also read that many of these non-standard sprockets aren't really up to the task of hard milling duty.

That's what I heard as well.

Here is an interesting graph.

It shows chain speed as a function of RPM for different drive sprockets.

A Stock 090 maxes out at ~8k RPM while the 880 maxes at ~12k RPM.

Lets assume you are milling at 1000 RPM below max then even a 7 pin 3/8 chain will have a higher chain speed at 11k rpm than a 9 pin 404 chain at 7k RPM. Not only is the chain speed slower but 404 chain uses up more power because the top plate has to cross cut more wood fibre. You could probably pick up some extra cutting speed with extra low rakers on the 404 with the 090, eg Will Mallof suggests 0.045" rakers, and going to 10 pin or 11 pin does not going to gain a lot more.

I agree with Brad, up to ~48" (especially in softwood) the 880, especially with 3/8 chain has enough power to out mill the 090 using the 404 chain.

On harder wood it depends if the 880 can keep up the revs and take big enough chips with the cutters. If I was consistently cutting Aussie hardwood bigger than 40" I would consider a 090, but my 441, 660, 076 and 880 are more than enough for the size of logs I mill, and the odd log over 40"

 

[oldsaw]

I'd be looking at a 3120 in his case because of the ability to use his current milling bars on the same saw. I bought a 3120 for that reason alone. I could adapt my Stihl mount bar to work with it and still have the 066 for a "back up" when in the field.

Mark

 

[wavefreak]

Lets assume you are milling at 1000 RPM below max then even a 7 pin 3/8 chain will have a higher chain speed at 11k rpm than a 9 pin 404 chain at 7k RPM. Not only is the chain speed slower but 404 chain uses up more power because the top plate has to cross cut more wood fibre. You could probably pick up some extra cutting speed with extra low rakers on the 404 with the 090, eg Will Mallof suggests 0.045" rakers, and going to 10 pin or 11 pin does not going to gain a lot more.

I agree with Brad, up to ~48" (especially in softwood) the 880, especially with 3/8 chain has enough power to out mill the 090 using the 404 chain.

On harder wood it depends if the 880 can keep up the revs and take big enough chips with the cutters. If I was consistently cutting Aussie hardwood bigger than 40" I would consider a 090, but my 441, 660, 076 and 880 are more than enough for the size of logs I mill, and the odd log over 40"

Doesn't increasing the chain speed also decrease the available torque? Seems to me there should be a sweet spot where the available torque and the chain speed are well matched to the application.

 

[Can8ianTimber]

Here is some good advise I found back a couple years ago about double ended bar milling.
http://www.procutportablesawmills.com/doublesawbars.html

It is not like doubling your power. I talked to this guy extensivly and he knows his stuff.

Here is more good stuff for general sawmilling info.
http://www.sawmillchainsaws.com/
He recommends the 3120 over the 088.

 

[Brmorgan]

Doesn't increasing the chain speed also decrease the available torque? Seems to me there should be a sweet spot where the available torque and the chain speed are well matched to the application.

Yes, it does decrease the torque at the sprocket. But since the 090 has enormous torque at low RPMs, it should be able to handle at least a 9 or 10 pin 3/8 or a 9-pin .404 as long as the wood isn't too wide or hard. Mine will crosscut a 30" tree about the same speed as a 12" one, which tells me that I'm being held back by the chain speed and not available torque from the engine. Personally I don't really like the idea of filing the rakers down to make the chain more aggressive, because first of all it permanently modifies the chain so it's harder to adapt it to different types of wood, and secondly a more aggressive chain produces a rougher cut.

 

[BobL]

Here is more good stuff for general sawmilling info.
http://www.sawmillchainsaws.com/
He recommends the 3120 over the 088.

This guys recommendations are based solely around the 880 being supplied stock with a 404 chain, and because Stihl cancelled warranty on Stihl chain saws sold in Canada and shipped to the U.S (my guess is he is miffed because he was was getting his saws this way) so he's using his website to express his upset, but this has nothing to do with how good the 880 is as a milling saw . The 3/8 v 404 chain is a non issue as most millers do not use standard bars and chains. He seems to forget that the 3120 is carby governed to 10k rpm (880 is coil governed to 12k), and does not have an H carby screw, and has an old style inboard sprocket making chain changing a PITA. In stock form the saws are very similar at milling but unless the carby is changed on the 3120 it is not possible to mod the exhaust without changing the entire carby. He also recommends a constant raker height (35"') whereas anyone that really knows what they are doing and has studied chains how chains work will know that constant raker/cutter angle is what is needed. Like I have said before old school operators (even Will Mallof who recommends a constant 45"') have a lot to offer but they do not know everything,

 

[excess650]

To my way of thinking, another 395xp woud be preferable. With a pair, you can run your double-end rig, and/or have a spare powerhead. It will limit the need for different mount bars and other parts as well. Spares are good!

 

[Brmorgan]

Bob, that guy's company is located in a city about three hours north of where I live here in British Columbia. So I don't think he was having problems getting his saws shipped in that way, rather I think he encountered some hurdles with ones he was shipping out of the country with the mills he builds. I haven't been to his shop myself, but by all reports he runs a pretty stand-up operation there and builds good stuff, but you're right, he does seem to have a chip on his shoulder. Though if Stihl gave me the run-around just for stating my own opinion, I might too.

 

[Can8ianTimber]

This guys recommendations are based solely around the 880 being supplied stock with a 404 chain, and because Stihl cancelled warranty on Stihl chain saws sold in Canada and shipped to the U.S (my guess is he is miffed because he was was getting his saws this way) so he's using his website to express his upset, but this has nothing to do with how good the 880 is as a milling saw . The 3/8 v 404 chain is a non issue as most millers do not use standard bars and chains. He seems to forget that the 3120 is carby governed to 10k rpm (880 is coil governed to 12k), and does not have an H carby screw, and has an old style inboard sprocket making chain changing a PITA. In stock form the saws are very similar at milling but unless the carby is changed on the 3120 it is not possible to mod the exhaust without changing the entire carby. He also recommends a constant raker height (35"') whereas anyone that really knows what they are doing and has studied chains how chains work will know that constant raker/cutter angle is what is needed. Like I have said before old school operators (even Will Mallof who recommends a constant 45"') have a lot to offer but they do not know everything,

Sorry Bob

I am not trying to spread faulse info, I am just a wood lover trying to learn as much as I can about chainsaws.

I am really suprised to see that the 090 is rated for 13 HP but the 088 is only rated for 8.6. At only 16 more CC's that does not seem right. Is it a matter if RPM's