Best big saw for chainsaw milling

[ZachAK]

My apologies if this has been covered in a previous post...I couldn't find it...

What's your dream saw for milling?

I've used an 066 mostly, for 36" and under. A few years ago I bought and completely rebuilt an 076AV Super with my Stihl mechancic, and it has more power for 48" rips, but still feels a bit slow. Plenty of torque!

I probably will never mill anything over 60". All softwoods, but Sitka spruce and even yellow cedar can be a bear.

A friend is offering his 880 for sale, a 2014 model with the stainless muffler and limited coil, probably 5 hours of run time total. A number of people have said an 088 or 084 has more power for milling, especially with mods, and tuning with an unlimited coil. There are plenty of those for sale online, and with a compression test and OEM parts that seems like a fairly safe venture.

I'm a lousy mechanic, but my son is a pro, and I know pros with decades of experience.

Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.

Zach

Photos of a 42" red cedar, and 28" yellow cedar

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

My apologies if this has been covered in a previous post...I couldn't find it...

What's your dream saw for milling?

I have an unmodded limited coil 780 - slightly detuned overseas 880 - that's a dependable workhorse in big stuff but will never fly through anything. In 25-32" wet poplar, pretty soft stuff, it was gummed up by the large wet chips even with skip chain and ran slow. I ran 3/8 lo pro full comp through some of the same wood with only a 64cc saw, and it went way faster through the 25" widths due to producing way smaller chips that didn't clog the cut so badly. The only other softwood I've milled, a 28-30" wet cypress, my 87cc 045 Super w 3/8LP tore through it like a hot knife through butter. There are many more experienced than me that argue there's a place in big wood for the chip throwing of .404 chain, but for me in milling, smaller chain has always produced greater speed and cleaner cuts. I thought lo pro hit its limits of chip moving ability around 30" from some notable slowdowns in ultra hard wood, but it showed none of that in cypress of that width. To be fair, I've never milled anything 35-50". Want to try some 36-42" softwood w a 48" lo pro bar though w a custom skip grind.

I've not had anyone explain to me yet though how an unlimited coil helps milling when milling RPM's are almost always well below where the 880 is rev limited. BobL, one of the most knowledgeable people to ever post on this site, posted on another forum in regard to chainsaws in big wood vs Lucas Mills. This is why in big wood, displacement and low end torque is king. Unlimited revs are meaningless.

"There's no stock chainsaw around that can hold 13000 rpm in a big cut. The 3120 Husky is rev limited to 9500 rpm and an 880 is unlikely to hold more than 10,500 rpm in a big cut. The big stock CS can gain some performance back by running 3/8 chain whereas slabbers should be running 404 chain.

A BIG difference between 23 HP slabber and a big stock chainsaw is that the slabber can run a raker that is twice as deep so it does not need the chain speed of a chainsaw. It can have half the chain speed of a chain saw and still cut faster. 137 cc 090s have a max RPM of 8000 but can run rakers that are 1.6 - 1.8 x lower than normal saws which is why they out cut higher revving saws in big wood."

You running .404 on the 076AV? Probably the best shot at getting any notable speed increase in really big softwood would be with the 880 running .404 custom ground "double skip" or Oregon hyperskip with lowered rakers. The stock 880 is designed to produce max power at 8500 rpm. That would seem to be where you want to mill at then. I'm not a performance guy, but I keep reading up on porting in all kinds of engines and all of it seems to be aimed at creating race cars not hauling trucks. There's very little aside from displacement that gives you more torque. To pull huge bars milling in big wood, I remain unconvinced of the benefits of modding. Porting smaller saws to make smaller chain scream at high revs through cuts makes sense to me. But Stihl designed the 880 and the 090 very specifically for big chain and huge wood and they designed them as lower rev big torque machines with poor high end power for a reason. The Aussies I've talked to mill bigger far harder wood on a regular basis than most any North Americans do, and hardly any of the experienced big wood millers Down Under I've talked to have modded their 880's.

 

[Lightning Performance]

Buy it @ZachAK . Open the muffler and leave the rest alone.
Advance the ignition on the smaller saws about 0.030 or less off the key.

Keep them tuned fat and no need to change the coil or limited ignition rev.

I mill with 084s and 660s. Some are modded some are ported. All make a good milling tool. Swapping them out for a stroked 394 and 395 just for more testing on the mill. Anything over 85cc will serve you well.

Get better filters.


Check to see if you have the larger stock carb and intake boot on that 880.

 

[ZachAK]

I have an unmodded limited coil 780 - slightly detuned overseas 880 - that's a dependable workhorse in big stuff but will never fly through anything. In 25-32" wet poplar, pretty soft stuff, it was gummed up by the large wet chips even with skip chain and ran slow. I ran 3/8 lo pro full comp through some of the same wood with only a 64cc saw, and it went way faster through the 25" widths due to producing way smaller chips that didn't clog the cut so badly. The only other softwood I've milled, a 28-30" wet cypress, my 87cc 045 Super w 3/8LP tore through it like a hot knife through butter. There are many more experienced than me that argue there's a place in big wood for the chip throwing of .404 chain, but for me in milling, smaller chain has always produced greater speed and cleaner cuts. I thought lo pro hit its limits of chip moving ability around 30" from some notable slowdowns in ultra hard wood, but it showed none of that in cypress of that width. To be fair, I've never milled anything 35-50". Want to try some 36-42" softwood w a 48" lo pro bar though w a custom skip grind.

I've not had anyone explain to me yet though how an unlimited coil helps milling when milling RPM's are almost always well below where the 880 is rev limited. BobL, one of the most knowledgeable people to ever post on this site, posted on another forum in regard to chainsaws in big wood vs Lucas Mills. This is why in big wood, displacement and low end torque is king. Unlimited revs are meaningless.

"There's no stock chainsaw around that can hold 13000 rpm in a big cut. The 3120 Husky is rev limited to 9500 rpm and an 880 is unlikely to hold more than 10,500 rpm in a big cut. The big stock CS can gain some performance back by running 3/8 chain whereas slabbers should be running 404 chain.

A BIG difference between 23 HP slabber and a big stock chainsaw is that the slabber can run a raker that is twice as deep so it does not need the chain speed of a chainsaw. It can have half the chain speed of a chain saw and still cut faster. 137 cc 090s have a max RPM of 8000 but can run rakers that are 1.6 - 1.8 x lower than normal saws which is why they out cut higher revving saws in big wood."

You running .404 on the 076AV? Probably the best shot at getting any notable speed increase in really big softwood would be with the 880 running .404 custom ground "double skip" or Oregon hyperskip with lowered rakers. The stock 880 is designed to produce max power at 8500 rpm. That would seem to be where you want to mill at then. I'm not a performance guy, but I keep reading up on porting in all kinds of engines and all of it seems to be aimed at creating race cars not hauling trucks. There's very little aside from displacement that gives you more torque. To pull huge bars milling in big wood, I remain unconvinced of the benefits of modding. Porting smaller saws to make smaller chain scream at high revs through cuts makes sense to me. But Stihl designed the 880 and the 090 very specifically for big chain and huge wood and they designed them as lower rev big torque machines with poor high end power for a reason. The Aussies I've talked to mill bigger far harder wood on a regular basis than most any North Americans do, and hardly any of the experienced big wood millers Down Under I've talked to have modded their 880's.

Thanks so much for the thoughtful reply. A lot of great information.

I too have a lot of respect for BobL. I've benefited greatly from his posts on progressive raker sharpening. Thanks for that quote.

My local platinum Sithl mechanic suggested opening to muffler would at least be good, as heat build up in milling at WOT reduces horse power. I'll have to talk with him about torque.

I've almost always ran .404 in anything 36" and over. I ran 3/8 .050 with a 661 when I first started, and I really didn't like it at the time...but that was a decade ago, and I honestly can't remember why I didn't like it. I was much happier with .404 when I bought an old 066, but maybe I was just happier with the 066. What you say makes good sense on 3/8.

Also makes good sense on rakers on greater torque. I haven't run hyperskip. So far my best chain has been the Granberg, but it the greater room for saw dust makes perfect sense to me.

Thanks again. I'll do a bit more research based on what you said, and talk with my mechanic friends and son.

 

[ZachAK]

Buy it @ZachAK . Open the muffler and leave the rest alone.
Advance the ignition on the smaller saws about 0.030 or less off the key.

Keep them tuned fat and no need to change the coil or limited ignition rev.

I mill with 084s and 660s. Some are modded some are ported. All make a good milling tool. Swapping them out for a stroked 394 and 395 just for more testing on the mill. Anything over 85cc will serve you well.

Get better filters.


Check to see if you have the larger stock carb and intake boot on that 880.

Thanks so much for your reply. Everything makes good sense to me.

Agreed on bigger filters. My 066 came with a Maxflo, and has been an amazing runner.

One question—and my disclaimer on not being a mechanic—no worries on the limited coil on the newer 880?

 

[J D]

One question—and my disclaimer on not being a mechanic—no worries on the limited coil on the newer 880?

Not for milling as you want the saw tuned a bit rich so that will see it running below the limit. Even with a good muffler mod you souldn't be tuning it to where the limited coil would make a difference.
The limited coil can be less convenient to tune

 

[J D]

I too have a lot of respect for BobL. I've benefited greatly from his posts on progressive raker sharpening. Thanks for that quote.

@BobL - we miss you

 

[ZachAK]

Not for milling as you want the saw tuned a bit rich so that will see it running below the limit. Even with a good muffler mod you souldn't be tuning it to where the limited coil would make a difference.
The limited coil can be less convenient to tune

Thank you!

 

[ZachAK]

@BobL - we miss you

Agreed! A sharp mind, and a fine gentleman.

 

[Lightning Performance]

Thanks so much for your reply. Everything makes good sense to me.

Agreed on bigger filters. My 066 came with a Maxflo, and has been an amazing runner.

One question—and my disclaimer on not being a mechanic—no worries on the limited coil on the newer 880?

Why bother. If it is tuned right for long milling cuts you never hit the limiter or barely. My 084 is easy to cook with no flood limiter or ignition limiter in big wood. Two are limited two are not. One is likely broke so it sings. They run so fat on a cold morning with a smooth bore boot your thinking no way will that clean up. It does. The 660 ported is puking cold. The 084 probably doesn't turn 10K but cleans up to run well over 11K no sweat. The 660 muffler is 90% dual outlets, custom intake long stack and a few other carb tweaks. It's running 20° of blowdown. Took a lot to get the 86.5 intake to work right milling. She hangs near 10K buried in big oak with a 42" bar milling or bucking full comp 404. Needs to come back to near 84 intake. I want more case time now and less ignition lead. It's ready for the 60" in 38-45" wood. Starting to test an 084 machined and ported just for the mill. Took 0.040 off the nase then cut an 0.020 popup. That cylinder got ported to be run against a stock cylinder just cleaned up no machine work. One is just a modified setup with the big filter and short stack on that. 58mm inlet. It pulls a 41" very well.

ALL need a header badly. Time is never alloted to build them.

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

Thanks so much for the thoughtful reply. A lot of great information.

I too have a lot of respect for BobL. I've benefited greatly from his posts on progressive raker sharpening. Thanks for that quote.

My local platinum Sithl mechanic suggested opening to muffler would at least be good, as heat build up in milling at WOT reduces horse power. I'll have to talk with him about torque.

I do want to open up my muffler some. That's definitely restrictive by all accounts. Might just buy one of those cheap $15 ports you install over a 1/2" hole and create a second port. I love the dual port muffler that came with my 056 Super that I have on my 045 Super now. Might get around to putting a MaxFlo intake on the 780 too. They can definitely benefit from breathing better than stock.

The only time I've ever used my 72" bar, with brand new hyperskip, it was slow in 30" pecan. I think the rakers needed taking down. But pecan is hard as hell, and favors narrower kerf chain. Not sure what I think of hyperskip, had some good results briefly in mesquite on a 42" bar but it dulls very quickly from being so few teeth. What I call double skip, taking off every other pair of teeth, to me is kind of the same effect Granberg is trying to achieve but more efficient by not bothering with the half-width scoring teeth at all. The scoring teeth are unnecessary as far as I'm concerned, and inconsistent grinding of the half-widths at the factory can create an imbalanced chain. You've got full comp, full skip (2/3 as many teeth), "double skip" (1/2 as many), and hyperskip (1/4 as many). No one has ever manufactured double skip, which I find baffling since it's such an obvious design and works so well. I know some of the Aussie millers use it. Simple enough to make from full comp, just take an angle grinder or grinding wheel to every other tooth pair. Keeps things balanced, same idea as hyperskip with the tooth arrays, just twice as many teeth. But less teeth than full skip so the perfect array IMO. And really lets you take those rakers down because of less power to run it. I've got to revisit my 780 and .404 again know I know a lot more, test it on some giant softwood out in the PNW. I was using it for a long time w huge slop in my bar rails which makes for a big sloppy kerf and poor cutting. Haven't used it since tightening them back up. Need to make some fresh .404 double skip chains too w aggressive rakers. I've never made one from a new chain, I only made one from a damaged chain once and eventually converted it to crosscut tooth angle and dramatically lowered the rakers to loan as a go to hell chain for a tree service friend to cut up big rounds for disposal. He thinks it works fantastic.

 

[Lightning Performance]

I do want to open up my muffler some. That's definitely restrictive by all accounts. Might just buy one of those cheap $15 ports you install over a 1/2" hole and create a second port. I love the dual port muffler that came with my 056 Super that I have on my 045 Super now. Might get around to putting a MaxFlo intake on the 780 too. They can definitely benefit from breathing better than stock.

The only time I've ever used my 72" bar, with brand new hyperskip, it was slow in 30" pecan. I think the rakers needed taking down. But pecan is hard as hell, and favors narrower kerf chain. Not sure what I think of hyperskip, had some good results briefly in mesquite on a 42" bar but it dulls very quickly from being so few teeth. What I call double skip, taking off every other pair of teeth, to me is kind of the same effect Granberg is trying to achieve but more efficient by not bothering with the half-width scoring teeth at all. The scoring teeth are unnecessary as far as I'm concerned, and inconsistent grinding of the half-widths at the factory can create an imbalanced chain. You've got full comp, full skip (2/3 as many teeth), "double skip" (1/2 as many), and hyperskip (1/4 as many). No one has ever manufactured double skip, which I find baffling since it's such an obvious design and works so well. I know some of the Aussie millers use it. Simple enough to make from full comp, just take an angle grinder or grinding wheel to every other tooth pair. Keeps things balanced, same idea as hyperskip with the tooth arrays, just twice as many teeth. But less teeth than full skip so the perfect array IMO. And really lets you take those rakers down because of less power to run it. I've got to revisit my 780 and .404 again know I know a lot more, test it on some giant softwood out in the PNW. I was using it for a long time w huge slop in my bar rails which makes for a big sloppy kerf and poor cutting. Haven't used it since tightening them back up. Need to make some fresh .404 double skip chains too w aggressive rakers. I've never made one from a new chain, I only made one from a damaged chain once and eventually converted it to crosscut tooth angle and dramatically lowered the rakers to loan as a go to hell chain for a tree service friend to cut up big rounds for disposal. He thinks it works fantastic.

The real benefit to milling is catching most of the fines in washable filters big enough to support the engine. As the level goes up the inlets need to increase more.

 

[ZachAK]

I do want to open up my muffler some. That's definitely restrictive by all accounts. Might just buy one of those cheap $15 ports you install over a 1/2" hole and create a second port. I love the dual port muffler that came with my 056 Super that I have on my 045 Super now. Might get around to putting a MaxFlo intake on the 780 too. They can definitely benefit from breathing better than stock.

The only time I've ever used my 72" bar, with brand new hyperskip, it was slow in 30" pecan. I think the rakers needed taking down. But pecan is hard as hell, and favors narrower kerf chain. Not sure what I think of hyperskip, had some good results briefly in mesquite on a 42" bar but it dulls very quickly from being so few teeth. What I call double skip, taking off every other pair of teeth, to me is kind of the same effect Granberg is trying to achieve but more efficient by not bothering with the half-width scoring teeth at all. The scoring teeth are unnecessary as far as I'm concerned, and inconsistent grinding of the half-widths at the factory can create an imbalanced chain. You've got full comp, full skip (2/3 as many teeth), "double skip" (1/2 as many), and hyperskip (1/4 as many). No one has ever manufactured double skip, which I find baffling since it's such an obvious design and works so well. I know some of the Aussie millers use it. Simple enough to make from full comp, just take an angle grinder or grinding wheel to every other tooth pair. Keeps things balanced, same idea as hyperskip with the tooth arrays, just twice as many teeth. But less teeth than full skip so the perfect array IMO. And really lets you take those rakers down because of less power to run it. I've got to revisit my 780 and .404 again know I know a lot more, test it on some giant softwood out in the PNW. I was using it for a long time w huge slop in my bar rails which makes for a big sloppy kerf and poor cutting. Haven't used it since tightening them back up. Need to make some fresh .404 double skip chains too w aggressive rakers. I've never made one from a new chain, I only made one from a damaged chain once and eventually converted it to crosscut tooth angle and dramatically lowered the rakers to loan as a go to hell chain for a tree service friend to cut up big rounds for disposal. He thinks it works fantastic.

Thanks for the reply!

Chain is sure fascinating...I need to experiment more. It sure seems like every species of wood prefers a little different set up.

I'll keep what you said in mind. Much appreciated.

 

[ZachAK]

Just an update...

Now I have an offer of a solid 090 with around 118 compression and the almost new 2014 880. There might be an 088 out there as well.

Tough decisions!

 

[Lightning Performance]

Flip the 090 and stay away from aluminum cans on 088 unless you have a spare jug and muffler around.

 

[ZachAK]

Flip the 090 and stay away from aluminum cans on 088 unless you have a spare jug and muffler around.

So you favor the 880?

 

[Lightning Performance]

So you favor the 880?

I favor the my 084s x4
Don't go down that road unless your willing to hunt for parts, pass on all but every fifth or sixth one and you'll never find cylinders like new unless you hunt up good runners with low hours or buy a stash of them. Mufflers are the big issue here but still have NOS ones tucked away.

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

Chain is sure fascinating...I need to experiment more. It sure seems like every species of wood prefers a little different set up.

Chain and sharpening is most of it in the end. People get a little hung up on saws. And as you say, size and type of wood makes a huge difference to choosing what works best for what you’re doing. Lo pro, 3/8, and .404 all have their place for different wood. All want different saws to suit them. I so far only know what works best for me in 15-35” extremely dense hardwoods. And what little softwood I’ve done in that size. Big PNW and Alaska softwoods I can only speculate about what might work best. Biggest displacement possible seems best on the face of it but I’d need a lot more experience in 35-60” wood to know at what size of wood that speed and narrower kerf gets outmatched by .404 double/hyperskip w heavily lowered rakers and raw torque. A guy in So Cal on one forum milled 4-6’ slabs of coastal live oak and blue gum eucalyptus w dual 880’s and a double ended bar. Each of us tends to be limited in knowledge by what wood and tree sizes we have in our area.

 

[GeneralKayoss]

The only time I've ever used my 72" bar, with brand new hyperskip, it was slow in 30" pecan. I think the rakers needed taking down. But pecan is hard as hell, and favors narrower kerf chain.

24" Pecan is what made me install my bar tip oiler. The only time I've switched chains while milling so far. Gummed them both up horribly.

 

[Seachaser]

24" Pecan is what made me install my bar tip oiler. The only time I've switched chains while milling so far. Gummed them both up horribly.

Green or dry pecan? Getting set up for milling next winter. We have lots of pecan. The reason I got into big professional saws.