Metals406
Granfodder Runningsaw
I'd still like to know if this is the cut being described... Or if I'm not sippin' what he's pourin'?
Used a coos bay in a tree today
- Thread starter murphy4trees
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Blakesmaster
Addicted to ArboristSite
Yeah, metals. That's what he's describing. As far as I can gather at least. That cut ( with a wedge in each side to help prevent unexpected twisting ) seems like it should pop the leaner right off the spar and straight down as opposed to having it try and lay out and coming back at you the way a hinge could do in that situation.
Blakesmaster
Addicted to ArboristSite
An "arrow" cut ( at least the one I am talking about ) is used in the tree when your saw is quick enough and the wood small enough to blast through the cut before the top has time to move one way or another. You cut straight through the wood at a 45 degree downward angle as fast as you can so that it makes a spike or "arrow" when it comes off.
Metals406
Granfodder Runningsaw
It's definitely an interesting technique.
Blakesmaster
Addicted to ArboristSite
No doubt. I'd want a bit of confirmation from more skilled climbers than myself before I'd try it. Or at least to know for sure that I interpreted Murph correctly. Seems like it would work in the right situation though.
Husky137
Addicted to ArboristSite
Gerry Beranek isn't enough of a professional endorsement?
oldirty
Addicted to ArboristSite
the MAN.
i am thinking if its a heavy head its going brush first anyway right? we know he had no facecut put in (out of fear of pinch maybe?)
by taking the sides out he could cut the holding wood in a controlled backcut allowing the top to get set free without the barber showing up. keep in mind it locust. good strong wood.
i could be dead wrong but i dont think he was "fast cutting" it. the cut you are talking about blakes.
also i wouldnt put those wedgies in either i dont think. you cant cut the strap if the wedges are in the way.
murph where are you?
i gotta go get my book!
Apples and Oranges
Murph was cutting a limb or a top up in the tree. You are confusing his cut with felling cuts. I'm sure Murph would never use the cut he described when felling an entire tree. Where are ya Murph???
Murph was cutting a limb or a top up in the tree. You are confusing his cut with felling cuts. I'm sure Murph would never use the cut he described when felling an entire tree. Where are ya Murph???
I do not like the concept of the holding wood unless it is in conjunction with a face cut. If you were to make a kerf cut as they illustrate, and then make your back cut, if you over-cut the kerf- and as the log breaks off the stump, the chainsaw may get hung up in the log and ripped out of your hands.
If you accidentally cut off one side of the holding would on a heavy leaner, the tree could twist and pinch the saw.
It also appears that this type of cut would be better suited if all the cuts were on the same plane or kerf. No offset cuts as in a standard face and back-cut, where the back-cut is higher than the bottom of the face.
toddstreeservic
ArboristSite Guru
That cut is also known as a salami cut I believe.
oldirty
Addicted to ArboristSite
i thought salami cut was for a big piece of wood that you needed to have slide off the cut? for bucking off big wood on a leaner.
toddstreeservic
ArboristSite Guru
yep olddirty you are right. the cut i was thinking of is refered to as a slice cut. I'm always thinking about food though.
Blakesmaster
Addicted to ArboristSite
I didn't think he was fast cutting it either, OD. I was just saying that the "arrow" or slice cut is the cut I use on smaller pieces of wood that would have the same effect as Murph's cut on this larger piece ( getting it to go straight down was what I interpreted that he wanted to do ). I kinda thought the wedges would help hold the piece upright ( I'd obviously put them as far away from where I'd backcut as I could ) and then maybe bore in a bit for my back cut with the tip. This is all speculative as I've never tried it and was just going on what I "thought" Murph was getting at. It still seems sketchy to me which is why I wanted to hear others success/oh sh#t stories before I attempted it myself. How you doin' by the way, boss?
oldirty
Addicted to ArboristSite
live'n it man, bout it.
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
The first post clearly states in the first sentence this is cut is used for head leaners. Cut was probably 10-12" locust with a 14" bar, 192 stihl with the thin bar and chain..
In reviewing Beranek's book, he makes it clear the coos bay is for front leaners ONLY! There was little or no chance that the piece would twist as I was cutting directly in line with the lean, and there was a pull rope in it for added safety.
I like the idea of using the cut as per the fisrt two diagrams when needed, that is to prevent twisting or pinching the bar with side movement.. However when you are taking the top out of a 95' tree, that cut would be quite ackward to set up properly without a bunch of repositioning... It was not needed in this case, but a good thing to keep in the bag of tricks for just the right time...
The cut was quick and easy and that top (20-25') popped and dropped like a stone... Like the floor fell out from underneath it. Very cool to watch it go like that.
I have never used this cut to fall a tree, though I might try it now... and I know it is a great cut to use for cutting logs to length for the mill.
In reviewing Beranek's book, he makes it clear the coos bay is for front leaners ONLY! There was little or no chance that the piece would twist as I was cutting directly in line with the lean, and there was a pull rope in it for added safety.
I like the idea of using the cut as per the fisrt two diagrams when needed, that is to prevent twisting or pinching the bar with side movement.. However when you are taking the top out of a 95' tree, that cut would be quite ackward to set up properly without a bunch of repositioning... It was not needed in this case, but a good thing to keep in the bag of tricks for just the right time...
The cut was quick and easy and that top (20-25') popped and dropped like a stone... Like the floor fell out from underneath it. Very cool to watch it go like that.
I have never used this cut to fall a tree, though I might try it now... and I know it is a great cut to use for cutting logs to length for the mill.
This sure sounds you are making this tougher than necessary. Same results, less work, greater security on a head leaner: use a modified "pop cut":
1. Make a deep single cut on the side of the fall, stopping just before the gap closes. If "sliding off the stump" is desired, give this cut up to a 45% upward slant. If you wish to give the top a little more lean away from you (so as to avoid being clobbered by the vertically falling top), give this cut a narrow wedge to control how far it leans before it pops.
2. Finish with a back cut barely above the face cut at a matching angle to the face cut. Advance the saw carefully until the gap closes slowly, get ready for the drop, then cut like mad until it pops loose. This will eliminate any notches on the butt from catching the stump and hanging on until the top swings over.
This method allows a skilled cutter to exactly control how far the leaner pitches before it pops, it controls any tendency to swing laterally (not afforded in the above method), and it causes the butt to slide clean off the stump, away from the operator and the tree.
It allows some directional control, in case you don't happen to be going exactly the same direction as the lean.
It also controls any tendency a leaner might have for barber chair.
Naturally, there are plenty of ways to screw it up, but if you are 90' in the air with a chainsaw, you had better know what you are doing anyway.
The greatest risk is to pinch the saw by cutting too deep on the initial cut. If that happens, just finish the back cut with a second saw, and catch it when it pops loose.
The greatest risk to the climber is to finish the back cut and have the top section hop off the trunk into his lap. VERY BAD That is prevented by having a sufficiently steep face cut. It is also a good idea to work from the side of the cut, just in case.
Two cuts (3 with narrow wedge), you're out of there.
1. Make a deep single cut on the side of the fall, stopping just before the gap closes. If "sliding off the stump" is desired, give this cut up to a 45% upward slant. If you wish to give the top a little more lean away from you (so as to avoid being clobbered by the vertically falling top), give this cut a narrow wedge to control how far it leans before it pops.
2. Finish with a back cut barely above the face cut at a matching angle to the face cut. Advance the saw carefully until the gap closes slowly, get ready for the drop, then cut like mad until it pops loose. This will eliminate any notches on the butt from catching the stump and hanging on until the top swings over.
This method allows a skilled cutter to exactly control how far the leaner pitches before it pops, it controls any tendency to swing laterally (not afforded in the above method), and it causes the butt to slide clean off the stump, away from the operator and the tree.
It allows some directional control, in case you don't happen to be going exactly the same direction as the lean.
It also controls any tendency a leaner might have for barber chair.
Naturally, there are plenty of ways to screw it up, but if you are 90' in the air with a chainsaw, you had better know what you are doing anyway.
The greatest risk is to pinch the saw by cutting too deep on the initial cut. If that happens, just finish the back cut with a second saw, and catch it when it pops loose.
The greatest risk to the climber is to finish the back cut and have the top section hop off the trunk into his lap. VERY BAD That is prevented by having a sufficiently steep face cut. It is also a good idea to work from the side of the cut, just in case.
Two cuts (3 with narrow wedge), you're out of there.
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The cut strategy forsakes side to side control, so is for forward leans only. The strip leaves minimal wood to cut, so saw canrace thru quickly for quicker relief, to help prevent barber chair from too slow a relief. The holding strip should be inline with the lean for max power, but with no side to side control, that lean should be forward.
In tree i've used other 'remaining wood' strategies, to allow saw to cut threw quicker, and get stronger throw forward (like throwing a top etc.).
In tree i've used other 'remaining wood' strategies, to allow saw to cut threw quicker, and get stronger throw forward (like throwing a top etc.).
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
pdq .. this thread is trying my patience...
your statement in particular "This sure sounds you are making this tougher than necessary. Same results, less work, greater security on a head leaner: use a modified "pop cut":
Any suggestiion that a modified pop cut is simpler, easier, or stands less of a chance to barber chair than the coos bay is complete ignorance...
IGNORANCE
The only benefit of setting a hinge with an undercut is to prevent twisting... When you are in a tree with a wide open DZ you cut the coos bay perfectly in line with the lean of the top... It doesn't get any simpler or easier than that!
I try to share this little gem with the people here and have to explain and re-explain and re-explain some more... It has gotten old...
And I do think it is good to make a distinction between hinge wood and holding wood, which have come to be used interchangably... In the cace of the coos bay the holding wood is not hinging...
your statement in particular "This sure sounds you are making this tougher than necessary. Same results, less work, greater security on a head leaner: use a modified "pop cut":
Any suggestiion that a modified pop cut is simpler, easier, or stands less of a chance to barber chair than the coos bay is complete ignorance...
IGNORANCE
The only benefit of setting a hinge with an undercut is to prevent twisting... When you are in a tree with a wide open DZ you cut the coos bay perfectly in line with the lean of the top... It doesn't get any simpler or easier than that!
I try to share this little gem with the people here and have to explain and re-explain and re-explain some more... It has gotten old...
And I do think it is good to make a distinction between hinge wood and holding wood, which have come to be used interchangably... In the cace of the coos bay the holding wood is not hinging...
RE: "this thread is trying my patience"
Hey Murph: thats what you get for posting about a cut called the "cooze bay" (or whatever), lol.
If I'm in a tree and not confident that a top will not barber chair due to extreme lean/weight I will get a bigger saw or go higher to take a smaller cut - all the while using variations of the classic "BOX"!
I know what pdq is talking about too I think, that cut is pretty experimental though, so definitely gotta be careful with that one.
Hey Murph: thats what you get for posting about a cut called the "cooze bay" (or whatever), lol.
If I'm in a tree and not confident that a top will not barber chair due to extreme lean/weight I will get a bigger saw or go higher to take a smaller cut - all the while using variations of the classic "BOX"!
I know what pdq is talking about too I think, that cut is pretty experimental though, so definitely gotta be careful with that one.
Hey murphy, I'm going to try the COOS BAY cut. I have usually at least put in a face cut, or made a single cut that fans around the front leaving holding wood on the far side to cut last and rip through fast(on smaller stuff). There are only 2 concerns I have. 1 will the bar pinch if the weight of the limb is off centered. 2 will there be a tear from the holding wood ( causing to loose control of the limb ) Any way, I will try it and thank you for the technique. I too wonder if this could be a felling technique? :monkey:
LT...
LT...
