VT, I done did it

[masiman]

Another VT thread.

Ok, I'm a little slow, or is it careful, maybe lazy. In any case I did the deed. I went up on VT this weekend on a smallish takedown. Tree overhanging a deck, silver maple, about 9" dbh, 35' tall. Because it was thin and leaning I rigged it out of an adjacent oak. I SRT'd ~50' up the oak, set my tip, set my block below the tip and worked my way down to the maple's height.

VT experiences.
My climbing line is nicely broken in, but the Ice Tail was new. I also have a length of Ultratech and Beeline that I will try. On my first test at home of the knot, 3 over 3 was slipping. I went to 4 over 4 and that held well. It slipped a few times before catching but caught quickly. Descending a modulating the smaller line is very different from the feel of 1/2" blakes hitch. The VT hitch is incredibly smoother than the Blakes. I set up the hitch with a Petzl fixe as tender.

I had problems taking up slack when I had the hitch under pressure (think hip thrusting). I guess I had too much length on my VT. My technique could be way off too.

- Very smooth operation
- Different descending feel of the knot
- Taking up slack under pressure was difficult, I would have been easier with a Blakes but that could be poor technique on my part.
- Letting out line to swing to the other tree was way smoother than my Blake could do.

Stupid or high confidence I don't know, but the only practice I did was tying the knot the night before and checking the holding power. After all the writeups and pix I have seen I was confident about the knot and setup. Just in case, I did take my split tail up with me and rode with my figure 8 below the tender for the first descent.

Thanks to all who have posted their experiences and setups.

I will measure my VT and get a pic of my setup.

 

[tree MDS]

How did you figure out how to tie that knot?

I've been playing with the hitch climber and a 30" 8mm bee line using a swab (short for lack of proper spelling, not trying to be cool, lol) for how simple it is to tie. I think the 30" bee line is too short for the VT??

I gotta say, that setup seems to do everything that stupid blakes and micro pulley was supposed to do back when I was first introduced to it 13 years ago or so. Very nice. I hated the blakes from day one.

I just gotta find a good climbing job to try it out on now, everything lately has been perfect for the bucket. I've been trying to modernize lately: new saddle and the hitch climber+ eye to eye tail. The only climbing I've had to do sinse I got all that crap was a crane job, so I just used the old taught line. I figured, crane job+ new saddle and climbing hitch= not exactly low and slow. lol

But from the diagram on the sherrill site I dont think its possible to tie the vt with that 30" bee line with the little grizzly eyes...?? I've got a 20' piece of HRC that I want to use for the vt but first need to figure out how to tie the damn thing. Guessing just dont cut it ya know!

 

[canopyboy]

How did you figure out how to tie that knot?

I've been playing with the hitch climber and a 30" 8mm bee line using a swab (short for lack of proper spelling, not trying to be cool, lol) for how simple it is to tie. I think the 30" bee line is too short for the VT??

But from the diagram on the sherrill site I dont think its possible to tie the vt with that 30" bee line with the little grizzly eyes...?? I've got a 20' piece of HRC that I want to use for the vt but first need to figure out how to tie the damn thing. Guessing just dont cut it ya know!

I think 30" for a VT is a bit long. I run about 26" (8mm beeline) and seems to be working great for me. Don't think you can do that if you have one that was grizzly spliced though. Just tie double fishermen in it and use a William D biner or the like. If you run it too long or use one with stiff splices it won't run well. Plus knots are cheap and you can play around and "tune" your length.

 

[Blakesmaster]

I run a 30" 8 mm beeline for my vt and it works well. 3 over 2 is how I tie it. I was on New England Hi Vee for a climb line but just picked up a Samson BRW. The BRW is quite smooth so I added a braid to my VT for the first climb but got tired of the extra friction and changed it up in the tree. My brother ( who's only used the blakes ) couldn't even get my VT to grab though when he tried my line for the last part of the tree. The hardest part I found about using a VT is simply learning to trust it. If you hold onto your climb line for your life or hold the VT for some reason instead of tossing your weight into and letting it work you'll never like it. It takes a little bit longer to grab than a blakes and that initial feeling of falling is what threw my bro.

 

[tree md]

Cord length is going to vary from climber to climber and saddle to saddle. I started out with about 30" and it was way too long. I shortened it about 8 inches and it worked a lot better on my old saddle then had to shorten it even more when I upgraded to a new saddle with a rope bridge. If you tie your eyes with a double fishermans you can adjust it an play with it until you find your right length. It does tend to run a lot more than the old regular prussic I used to climb on but I am still experimenting with the number of coils and braids on mine. I have done two large removals on it now and pruned several trees. It runs so much smoother than the old prussic I used to climb on and slack tending is a dream. You just have to be mindful that it tends to run a bit and you'll be fine. I'm still tweaking my setup so maybe I'll work that out in time. I am just using a boat swivel snap to tend slack instead of a micro pulley. It works great.

 

[canopyboy]

Cord length is going to vary from climber to climber and saddle to saddle. I started out with about 30" and it was way too long. I shortened it about 8 inches and it worked a lot better on my old saddle then had to shorten it even more when I upgraded to a new saddle with a rope bridge. If you tie your eyes with a double fishermans you can adjust it an play with it until you find your right length. It does tend to run a lot more than the old regular prussic I used to climb on but I am still experimenting with the number of coils and braids on mine. I have done two large removals on it now and pruned several trees. It runs so much smoother than the old prussic I used to climb on and slack tending is a dream. You just have to be mindful that it tends to run a bit and you'll be fine. I'm still tweaking my setup so maybe I'll work that out in time. I am just using a boat swivel snap to tend slack instead of a micro pulley. It works great.

You went from 30 to 22 and then even shorter? And you can still get enough wraps around? I'm on 7/16 tachyon and at about 25-26" I can barely get all 4 wraps and 2 braids on.

I'm not sure what you mean by runs a bit. You mean it doesn't grab at first? It should, or you can add another wrap up top. Also (and this doesn't seem to be your problem) you can have a bit of fallback before you take up the slack and it grabs if it's too long.

I've used the boatsnap and pulley, both seem to work well. The pulley maybe just a bit better, but not by much.

 

[tree md]

You went from 30 to 22 and then even shorter? And you can still get enough wraps around? I'm on 7/16 tachyon and at about 25-26" I can barely get all 4 wraps and 2 braids on.

I'm not sure what you mean by runs a bit. You mean it doesn't grab at first? It should, or you can add another wrap up top. Also (and this doesn't seem to be your problem) you can have a bit of fallback before you take up the slack and it grabs if it's too long.

I've used the boatsnap and pulley, both seem to work well. The pulley maybe just a bit better, but not by much.

Well to tell the truth I haven't measured it but I would say 22" eye to eye after I shortened it the first time them I too about 4 more inches out after I went to a rope bridge. And I mean that it runs a little before it catches and that takes some getting used to. Like I said though, I'm still experimenting.

 

[canopyboy]

How many wraps and braids are you running? I guess I can see the shorter length if (and the running a bit) if you're less than 4 & 2. I'm at 185# before the gear I'm carrying, and 4 & 2 (wraps and braids) seems the minimum for me. And 25-26" seems about the minimum to tie that with before I run out of rope.

 

[canopyboy]

BTW treemd, I'm not trying to put the thumbscrews on you or anything. I just recently switched a month or so ago and am trying to compare notes here.

 

[tree md]

BTW treemd, I'm not trying to put the thumbscrews on you or anything. I just recently switched a month or so ago and am trying to compare notes here.

No problem at all my friend. I appreciate any input you have as well as others. Hey if it makes my job easier I am all ears.

I am using a 4 & 2 as well. I had to retie yesterday and in my haste I tied 3 coils and 2 braids and it seemed to hold me just as well. I need to play with it a little more and get it dialed in exactly how I want it. I also need to shorten the rope bridge on my saddle. I mean everything is working well but I feel there is room for improvement. New gear and it is just going to take a little time to get everything just how I want it.

 

[Treetom]

after my vt is out of use for a day or so, or has the tension relieved for a while in the tree, it slips, so i have to reset it's grip on the line. (see quote below from the Sherrill web site) this happens more often with ultra-tech than with other prussics. i've started to experiment with the distel hitch, with good success. i also made up a hi vee lanyard with a beeline vt that seems to hold better than other combinations i've tried.

"This friction hitch is highly finicky and should only be used in rigging duties not related to human life support. Slides well under significant loads but may invert when tension is reversed."

 

[outofmytree]

Still making the change from english prussik to vt myself. This is a couple of pics of a rig I copied. Very nice in the testing stages. Note the use of a closed sheave pulley means you can have the rope tail, dfl prussic and double overhand stopper knot all in 1 small area leaving plenty of room for a dfl termination know which locks up the krab really nicely.

I cant take credit for the idea or the neatly tied knots. Mine still look like I have no opposable digits.....

 

[masiman]

Still making the change from english prussik to vt myself. This is a couple of pics of a rig I copied. Very nice in the testing stages. Note the use of a closed sheave pulley means you can have the rope tail, dfl prussic and double overhand stopper knot all in 1 small area leaving plenty of room for a dfl termination know which locks up the krab really nicely.


I cant take credit for the idea or the neatly tied knots. Mine still look like I have no opposable digits.....

Yikes!!

I don't know that I would ever try that one. Something similar to page 15 of this guide

 

[canopyboy]

Not sure I'd want to try that either. I have trouble with my life hanging from a stopper knot. It is nice and clean and I can see how it locks everything up tight. Just something in me has trouble with using a stopper knot for anything besides a backup. And there it's your primary. If it fails under cycling, or the core starts to milk through the knot....

But then again, some people can't believe I trust my own splices. To each their own.

 

[outofmytree]

Yikes!!

I don't know that I would ever try that one. Something similar to page 15 of this guide

I see the similiarity with the "stopper knot tied behind an attachment hole" photograph on page 15. It is different in that on the photo shown it is the life line not the prussik but still something to consider. I will test this out by undoing the stopper whilst belayed at a low height and see what effect it has. I think the quality of the knot and reduced pressure will induce a slow peel rather than a dramtic tear out but testing is still required.

Thanks for the observation.

 

[outofmytree]

Help me out here guys, is the issue with the stopper alone?

Would a triple fishermans stopper make a difference?

If the stopper was replaced with dfl termination set next to the pulley would this satisfy your concerns?

I am not in contact with the arborist whose rig is pictured but I would really like to hear your specific issues with the layout as seen. This guy is a national level climber but even the best can get it wrong.

 

[masiman]

Help me out here guys, is the issue with the stopper alone?

Would a triple fishermans stopper make a difference?

If the stopper was replaced with dfl termination set next to the pulley would this satisfy your concerns?

I am not in contact with the arborist whose rig is pictured but I would really like to hear your specific issues with the layout as seen. This guy is a national level climber but even the best can get it wrong.

My concern is with the stopper. I think the others are saying the same. To me, that stopper is putting a load on the pulley where a life support load is not at all designed (the becket and sideplates). Plus I don't think it is using the rope in the best manner. As noted, the core could milk out, the knot could wear and become too thin to be a stopper, the knot could roll out, etc. Some of these things could happen with "traditional" setups except for the bulk issue. There are plenty here who have far superior technical knowledge of ropes than I. Hopefully they will be able to explain stoppers and appropriate uses for them.

I couldn't tell where the second leg of the VT goes to.

I'll give the setup the benefit of doubt, but I know I won't be trying it anytime soon if ever.

PS I still owe pix of my setup! I won't mod it to avoid criticisms

 

[Tree Pig]

my question is why not just tie eyes and slip in the biner like everyone else. Why fix whats not broken.

 

[tree md]

To me, a stopper knot is a last resort knot. An oh #### knot if you will. I would not want to be staking my life to a knot that is not tied to a proper termination point with a proper termination knot. What happens if a shock load is placed on the stopper knot?

 

[canopyboy]

It is different in that on the photo shown it is the life line not the prussik but still something to consider.

Wait, how is this not a life support knot? You're hanging from the prussik and the other end of the climbing line, right? If that stopper comes undone, it slips through the pulley, the prussik comes undone, the downrope slides through pulley, and you essentially freefall down your rope. I'm thinking DRT here, which is where I use a VT.

If I'm missing something let me know....