Waterline through a 2x10" beam.

[SeanK]

I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this question but here it goes.

A plumber friend of mine who is re-piping a remodeled house has cut out a 2inch high, 5inch wide chunk out from a 2x10 overhead beam instead of drilling a hole in the middle of the beam in order to put the waterline through it. (please see picture)

He says he will put a metal plate under each of cut out section of the beam.
Would this pass the inspection? Thanks in advance.

 

[trimmmed]

It might pass if no ones paying attention, but by notching out the 2 inches the 2x10 has effectively been reduced to a 2x8 (technically) This may or may not be a problem based on span and loads and if it is a problem it might not show up right away, but over time.

 

[ShoerFast]

It might pass if no ones paying attention, but by notching out the 2 inches the 2x10 has effectively been reduced to a 2x8 (technically) This may or may not be a problem based on span and loads and if it is a problem it might not show up right away, but over time.

This may draw more attention to the notches, but if it were my floor, I think if 2X8's were added as doubler's to both sides of the joist like my photo-pretend-a-builder here:

Wouldn't that add some of the strength back if they were Liquid-nailed and lag screwed in place?

 

[trimmmed]

This may draw more attention to the notches, but if it were my floor, I think if 2X8's were added as doubler's to both sides of the joist like my photo-pretend-a-builder here:

Wouldn't that add some of the strength back if they were Liquid-nailed and lag screwed in place?

No, it would just add weight. If you added a 2x8 that spans to both bearing points, you would increase strength.

 

[SeanK]

I really appreciate the quick relplies guys, thanks.

And, yes, ShoerFast, that is one of the methods that I've suggested to him but I'm not sure if that would make it an automatic-pass from an inspectors point of view. I was just wondering if there is a better technically-accurate-by-the-book remedy for this problem.

 

[trimmmed]

The notch creates a chord line, everything below the green line is now weight instead of structure. Chances are that the problem won't be catastrophic but might show up as a sag or a bouncy floor

 

[SeanK]

The notch creates a chord line, everything below the green line is now weight instead of structure. Chances are that the problem won't be catastrophic but might show up as a sag or a bouncy floor

So, he should put a 2x8 that spans to both bearing points?

 

[trimmmed]

So, he should put a 2x8 that spans to both bearing points?

That depends on a few things, mainly the length of span between bearing points. If you sister up a new 2x8 I would think you're good to go.

 

[SeanK]

That depends on a few things, mainly the length of span between bearing points. If you sister up a new 2x8 I would think you're good to go.

The length is about 10-12feet, I'm not sure. But, great idea! I don't know why I didn't think of this..Thanks!

 

[ShoerFast]

Thanks trimmed

At first I was in disagreement with your idea of the doubler adding weight, that was intell I read your next post!

My idea for the doubler repair was based on metals, as the shear strength has no grain as in wood, duh!

As the joist would want to crack eventually at your green line.

 

[hanniedog]

If I were the home owner the plummer would have knots on his head from the nearest board I could find. Cutting these notches is a major no no by taking this short cut many future problems could happen. Yes drilling the holes and feeding the pipe thru can be a pain. Running the plumbing thru holes in joists makes for much more professional looking job.

 

[turnkey4099]

I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this question but here it goes.

A plumber friend of mine who is re-piping a remodeled house has cut out a 2inch high, 5inch wide chunk out from a 2x10 overhead beam instead of drilling a hole in the middle of the beam in order to put the waterline through it. (please see picture)

He says he will put a metal plate under each of cut out section of the beam.
Would this pass the inspection? Thanks in advance.

His idea of adding a plate under the notch will not in anyones wildest dreams add back the strength lost. The only reasonable correction available now is to sister on 2x8, prefereably the full lenght.

The first thing I would do is report him to the building inspector.

Next I would tell all my acquaintances about this jerk and tell them never to use him or anyone else from the company he either owns or works for.

Harry K

 

[grabroot&growl]

Plumber Friend

Remember guys, the original question identified the plumber as a friend. You don't typically bad-mouth your friends or turn them in, you learn from their mistakes, don't use them yourself, and help them out of jams.

It sounds like that is what is happening here, good friend.

The damage is done, now to look for solutions. The sistered 2x8 run back to the load supports seems to be the only feasible method to regain the strength lost by the cut on the bottom side.

 

[turnkey4099]

Remember guys, the original question identified the plumber as a friend. You don't typically bad-mouth your friends or turn them in, you learn from their mistakes, don't use them yourself, and help them out of jams.

It sounds like that is what is happening here, good friend.

The damage is done, now to look for solutions. The sistered 2x8 run back to the load supports seems to be the only feasible method to regain the strength lost by the cut on the bottom side.

Okay, I missed that. Still and all, if it had happened to me, that would be the last time 'friend' would ever work on my place. Still remain friends but...

I have a friend that has banned (he doesn't know that) from ever being around me with a chainsaw. We used to cut together, no more.

Harry K

 

[DGG]

How far apart are the beams?

What would be the impact of attaching a 2x4 to the bottom of the 2x10, assuming you can firmly seat it to the end support bearing points?

Is the 2x10 only supported on the ends?

What a doofuss! You need to buy the guy a power drill and some bits. He is having way to much fun with his sawzall.

 

[gasman]

I saw a plumber do this once because he did not own a right angle drill.

 

[trimmmed]

....................................................

has cut out a 2inch high, 5inch wide chunk ...............................................................

It looks like the max notch that can be made in a 2x10 is 1 9/16" x 3 1/8", but cannot be made in the middle third of the joist

http://www.pamcani.org/journey/code18.pdf

On the next link, scroll to page 8 and read thru page 13, there are some pretty good illustrations and info there. Look at the last diagram and paragraph. What it is saying is that a 2" notch in a 2x10 is actually weaker than an un-notched 2x8

http://www.awc.org/HelpOutreach/eCourses/MAT105/Section05-Floors.pdf

 

[PA Plumber]

It looks like the max notch that can be made in a 2x10 is 1 9/16" x 3 1/8", but cannot be made in the middle third of the joist

http://www.pamcani.org/journey/code18.pdf

On the next link, scroll to page 8 and read thru page 13, there are some pretty good illustrations and info there.

http://www.awc.org/HelpOutreach/eCourses/MAT105/Section05-Floors.pdf

You said overhead beam. I am guessing it is either a ceiling joist or a Ceiling truss. If it is a truss, this opens up a whole different set of issues. If It is joist, you may have to add an additional joist in between the joists that have been notched.

The "scab" idea is a good one. Make sure it goes the full length but also make sure it is adequate. I would probably just add a joist in between every existing joist that was cut.

 

[PA Plumber]

Another note:
I have had to do this on an outside joist situation when there is not enough room to get my hand into the area where plumbing is to be located. I only cut one though and it has to be "repaired" with additional cats and bracing.

I run copper on 95% of the housed I plumb. I do follow the international plumbing codeand the PA builders code. We have very strict guidlines and knowledgeable inspectors around here.


Finally: You mentioned they were 2 x 10's. These joists weren't laminate were they?

 

[CJ-7]

http://www.awc.org/HelpOutreach/eCourses/MAT105/Section05-Floors.pdf

Thanks for this link to a good resource. Great pics that are worth a thousand words. As stated in that manual, the bending stress is greatest at the center of a beam, therefore it is the most critical portion of a beam. Notching at the end is allowable within certain limits, as noted in the code, as being 1/6 of the depth of the beam as long as you don't notch in the middle third of the beam. Now it is possible that the 10" depth may be excessive in order to match the depth of an adjacent, but longer span. In my basement, I have some 2x10's that span 12 feet, but due to a jog in the wall, adjacent ones only span 8 feet. My builder could have gotten by with an 8" joist, but opted for a 10 incher to match the floor depth. In that case a notch could be greater than 1/6 depth without overstressing the joist. But trying to get an inspector to agree may be a whole different issue. Not worth hiring an engineer to prove the point.