what ever happened to...

[Blinky]

I'm with the guys that say good groundies are a lot more than just labor. They have to know and love tree work as much as climbers. They have to know what's what, how to handle ropes and how to communicate with a climber at height. The best ones I've worked with were totally into tree work, they just didn't want to climb.

Right now, when there's rigging to be done and I need a good ground guy, I use my 12 year old son who knows his way around a porta-wrap better than I do. When he's in school I hire another climber. It's worth $200 a day for the efficiency of never having to explain anything, having what I need waiting and having a skilled guy watching what I'm doing... it's a lot safer too.

Real ground guys are skilled tradesmen, not laborers.

 

[reachtreeservi]

I'm with the guys that say good groundies are a lot more than just labor. They have to know and love tree work as much as climbers. They have to know what's what, how to handle ropes and how to communicate with a climber at height. The best ones I've worked with were totally into tree work, they just didn't want to climb.

Right now, when there's rigging to be done and I need a good ground guy, I use my 12 year old son who knows his way around a porta-wrap better than I do. When he's in school I hire another climber. It's worth $200 a day for the efficiency of never having to explain anything, having what I need waiting and having a skilled guy watching what I'm doing... it's a lot safer too.

Real ground guys are skilled tradesmen, not laborers.

+1
I just worked out a deal with a friend of mine that climbs also to work with me on my next job.
4 oaks about 30 in. diam. and 50 to 75 tall.
At a church. Overhanging the church roof on one side, a gazebo roof on one side and a bunch of head stones and graves on the other side. Scary !
Can you imagine the bad PR posssibilities ? Especially if you clipped a headstone or grave marker and chipped it. Some of those graves are from the 1800's. How would you fix that ?

I love my groundsman to death. But this is a job for a another climber!

 

[Rftreeman]

I had a big piece that I was gonna blow out of this maple, but to get it where the guy running the show wanted it to go, it had to get past some limbs on a BIG hickory. So I put a rope in, not very high, but it should have been enough to get a little bit more power behind it coming down. Well I start cutting, and 3 guys are standing there "pulling". The piece starts to go a little bit, and I guess I cut a bit too far, plus they weren't pulling enough, if at all... so it kicked off the tree and came down butt heavy due to the hickory branches. When the top came down it came back towards me.

Now I may not know too much, but when you're pulling on something, you aren't going to be standing upright. You're going to be either leaning forward, or way back to put your weight into the rope. You don't stand perfectly upright.

not trying to ruffle your feathers here but, I see a couple things wrong here, first, you try to put a top somewhere that it couldn't go and not flip back, second, the rope probably wasn't high enough and third, they didn't pull good.

I hate the ones who try and pull the whole tree over then the top rips really bad and doesn't hinge right.

the groundie in this clip would have gotten his you know what beat when I got down, that's if I could get down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN9ETDwFmmQ&feature=related

 

[ropensaddle]

Well believe it or not my wife is my rope handler I have
taught her how to build mechanical advantage and have to tell
her she has too much a lot! I never pop the top with only straight
pull because of groundies like the fore mentioned I would if I was pulling!
I am only two hundred lbs but pull harder than some men twice that
weight and don't rock the boat.

 

[treeman82]

You know... while I was up in the tree today I realized something. I can invest all the money I want into good gear that I know how to use properly... but if the people that are supporting me on the ground can't, won't, or don't use it... then it's easier to just keep the money in the bank and do things the hard way.

For example... I went and tore my truck a part today looking for a particular block and sling which I haven't seen in a while. Tore the garage a part as well. Can't find it for the life of me. One of the guys I have working... we leave, everything comes with us unless I tell him otherwise. The guy who is working with me lately... we've left before only to realize when I'm almost home that we left a saw behind... now this aluminum block and new 3/4" sling is lost somewhere... I might know where, but it's probably lost forever. Kind of upset about that.
Today while in the tree... I wanted them to use the porta-wrap at least... if not the winch. Nope... take wraps around the trees. Still didn't let the pieces run either. Had a few come close.

I tell them to pull on a few BIG logs I was going to bomb into a woodsy area. They're not even grabbing onto the rope. Just looking at me with their fingertips around the rope... not GRABBING it like they mean business.

I tell them at another point... "give this piece a bit of pull, but once it comes over let go." I start cutting... they're standing there with the rope in hand just looking at me. I give the signal to start pulling... still nothing. The piece comes over... they go for a ride.


I'm sorry... I mean I used to care about being safe... making sure that there wasn't anybody under me while cutting... make sure everything is out of the way... use blocks and pulleys... lower logs if need be... etc. Now... "if they're not gonna listen to me... then it's not my fault if they get killed or hurt." On the other end of things... "they want to tell me how to do things... if something gets busted up... not my problem."

 

[Rftreeman]

Now... "if they're not gonna listen to me... then it's not my fault if they get killed or hurt." On the other end of things... "they want to tell me how to do things... if something gets busted up... not my problem."

I think you need to take a break for awhile if this is what you think of the people who work with you, you'd change that poor attitude if you killed or severely hurt one of them, what would you tell their Mom, wife or kids. It IS your responsibility to make sure all is clear before you drop anything rather you like it or not.

have you ever taken the time to try and train these people, probably not?

 

[treeman82]

I'm very clear on what I want, and I show them. I speak english to english speaking people... yet I might as well be talking Greek because I tell them to send up the "little yellow rope" and they send me up both the little yellow one AND the big one... "no wonder why my arms are sore."

One of the guys working for me today used to have his own tree company... he's worked for tree guys for many years since then. He knows how to use a porta-wrap. He and I will bounce information and ideas off of eachother. I like working with him... until something is left on the job.

Another guy working today... "I used to climb." He will try to run the show... feels that he knows more than me. Like today.. could have just cut some branches on this piece I sent down in order to get it into the LZ, but instead he went to get a rope with a throw ball attached. Would have wasted too much time.

With that group, I'm tired of trying to yell over the saws.

 

[tree md]

It's the nature of the business. I learned a long time ago that you have to deal with some real geniuses in this business. It's seasonal work and let's face it, brush draggers are not the highest paid or brightest lot on the face of the planet. I try to be understanding of this and have realistic expectations of these guys. I will not work any tweakers. If the ground guys want to smoke weed or drink beer on their own time when they are at home then that's there business but I will not put up with any treakers or crackheads and it's not hard to weed them out very quickly.

I had the same thing happen to me last week. One of my ground hands loaded my handsaw scabbard on the truck and left the handsaw on the ground. Luckily, I had to go back Monday to grind a stump and my rope guy had noticed on Friday that the scabbard was missing my handsaw. We found it laying on the ground right where it had been left. I thought to myself right then that it was my own fault. It's my company, my gear and I need to walk the grounds to make sure everything is picked up before I leave the job. I mostly let my rope hand give the orders to the ground guys and correction when need be. He said he would have a talk with the fore mentioned ground hand. I don't think yelling and screaming does very much for job production but I'm still guilty of doing it at times. Especially when I have to repeat myself three or four times. I try to let my guys know we are a team and it takes all of us to get the job done. I try to pay them well and treat them right and they seem to try and do a good job for me. Sometimes these guys just don't have the intelligence or skills that we do. If they did, they would be the boss. Still doesn't mean that they aren't worthwhile or of value to us. The guy that loaded my scabbard without my saw has the mind of about a 13 year old and I try to be understanding of that. I never said a word about the handsaw this week. I just bought him and his family a 19# turkey for Thanksgiving and watched him grin like a jackass with a mouthful of briers.

 

[treeman82]

The last time we were on this particular job... the guy who used to climb goes and takes my 66 down into the woods to cut up a log. Puts it on the ground and starts it up with the chain spinning full blast. With the thing still going full bore he throws on the chain brake and walks it over to the log... the whole time I'm thinking to myself.. "my poor saw." He then squeezed the trigger, pulls the chain brake and goes to town. If only I could douplicate myself once or twice, and then have some mute gorillas who know their job is only to drag brush, move wood, and rake.

 

[ropensaddle]

The last time we were on this particular job... the guy who used to climb goes and takes my 66 down into the woods to cut up a log. Puts it on the ground and starts it up with the chain spinning full blast. With the thing still going full bore he throws on the chain brake and walks it over to the log... the whole time I'm thinking to myself.. "my poor saw." He then squeezed the trigger, pulls the chain brake and goes to town. If only I could douplicate myself once or twice, and then have some mute gorillas who know their job is only to drag brush, move wood, and rake.

That right there may be you're problem you want mutes
you don't like brush work and probably don't want to teach
them anything to make them proud. I must admit I really
don't enjoy brush and cleanup but still get in there and help
unless I am wore out from climbing a nasty tree! Remember
everyone wants to learn the fun stuff some are better learners
but rather than brow beat them encourage them and let them
do something that will make them feel more productive like
the last easy tree of the day let them get in the bucket!
Working with men under you requires you to sometimes
give them a moral boost instead of name calling and finger
pointing. Of course you can always buy shocking collars

 

[Themadd1]

It's all about education. If you cant teach them then get rid of them. there are people out there that actually like to do the work. If you cant find people then maybe you should pay more for the right people. Then get the cheap guys to do the brush dragging. I always have two climbers onsite in case of an emergency. You lose a little profit but you have the proper people on the job.

On certain jobs I just hire the grunt labor from the unemployment office. Just remember to hire three to do the job of one. They like to "tripod" often so you have to have one good guy to keep on them. "Tripod" - Leaning on a rake because two legs arent good enough...

My only requirement for a groundie is a willingness to learn, and the ability to speak english. Hiring guys who dont know the language are impossible to train and communicate with properly. I dont care what you say about this I wont change my mind.

 

[lees trees]

I understand your pain any equipment that can cut labor is worth it! one man at $10/hr with proper ins. is around $2500/mo what kind of equipment will that pay for? then it won't be drunk, stoned, late, steal from you or cry when someone else isn't pulling their weight I have never had a piece of equipment have to give a urine sample or go to his probation officer before work.

 

[oldirty]

... the whole time I'm thinking to myself.. "my poor saw."

potentially the worst feeling in the world sometimes man.

on a side note to this topic... how do you tell someone that they are not that good on a saw? without actually trying to hurt their feelings.

i have seen some pretty rotten things done to a saw in the past and still see it now. IE firing right into the cut after cold starting it, as soon as the smoke clears type of stuff. along with hitting the chain brake at full throttle right after a cut. i hate seeing someone pinch a saw and then they start honking on it to free it up.

i have definitily learned my lesson where i work now (my 359 is down due to a beating it took with a rook on the ball and pinching my saw on a crane job). no one but me touches the saws i use now especially if i am doing the upkeep on them. sorry.


oldirty

 

[treeman82]

A few weeks ago... earlier on this same job actually. I dumped a BIG oak log down a hill and it slid into a creek. A couple of guys were down in the creek with my 66 and my new 5/8" stable braid. I on the other hand was up top hooking up the rope to the truck which was going to be pulling the log out and telling the driver how much to pull. I just couldn't be in 3 places at once. So at some point while they are beating the snot out of my new rope... the log started to move... right over my 66 as luck would have it. They were kind enough to leave the saw directly in the path that the logs were to take. The saw was alright... but it's times like this when I would love for there to be 2 or 3 of me, and then a few idiots who can just roll the logs, or drag the brush out of the creek... so the guys who are expensive, trained, etc. are able to take a few minutes of break... or set up the next thing that has to be done.

 

[treeman82]

Alright... now I have to take responsibility for my own actions here.

I realized this morning when unpacking from yesterday that I left my 44 on the job... went down this morning and got it. I was VERY lucky that the customer had seen it and placed it in the locked garage.

I was able to locate my block today. I felt that maybe I had left it at a job that I had done as a sub for a friend of mine about 3 weeks ago. So I went to the house, spoke with the homeowner... he hadn't seen anything. Call up my friend who I just saw last week. He tells me that his guys had found it that day, and it's sitting in his truck. I guess he just conveniently forgot to tell me that he's had it all this time.

Me personally... if I find tools in my trucks, or on my jobs and I know they aren't mine... I try my best to locate the owner. Any tool... no matter how expensive or cheap it may be is FAR more costly when you need it, but realize that it's been lost or stolen.

 

[beowulf343]

That right there may be you're problem you want mutes
you don't like brush work and probably don't want to teach
them anything to make them proud. I must admit I really
don't enjoy brush and cleanup but still get in there and help
unless I am wore out from climbing a nasty tree! Remember
everyone wants to learn the fun stuff some are better learners
but rather than brow beat them encourage them and let them
do something that will make them feel more productive like
the last easy tree of the day let them get in the bucket!
Working with men under you requires you to sometimes
give them a moral boost instead of name calling and finger
pointing. Of course you can always buy shocking collars

Excellent post rope! My feelings exactly. I'm a little spoiled these days when it comes to groundies. Both my guys have been with me for over eight years now and they have both been in treework longer than i have. They are also family guys so they are steady and dependable. (That raises an interesting point-our outfit pays groundies a wage they can support a family on so thus we get a better crop of groundies.) But i spent several years on row, we didn't have the cream of the crop as groundies. And there are some that just won't get it and will be nothing more than brush draggers. But you have to work with them. I liked what rope said about getting in there and helping them learn. When i got new groundies, i didn't mind staying on the ground for a few days showing them what they need to do, how it is done, and what can happen if it isn't done right. Groundies have a tough job, they need encouragement-too many just get yelled at and are unappreciated-of course they aren't going to do a good job. In fact, i've never found a need to yell at a groundie-some have slower learning curves than others, and some can't rope at all, but you just need to learn how to work with them. My groundies and i are a team-it's not the beowulf show. Good groundies can make a decent climber look awesome. It just takes patience-most of us make a few mistakes now and then. Sorry about the rambling but i hate the way alot of climbers treat their groundies.

As to leaving stuff on the job site, that's just stupidity on your part. It's your gear, don't you check the truck to make sure everything is there or even do a once over on the jobsite? Every piece of my gear has it's spot in my truck, when something is missing it's easy to spot.