What Is Comparative Value Of Green vs. Seasoned Wood?

[svk]

Tree length loads of 12-14 cord were going for $85-$90 a cord. I live near 2 paper mills and they are paying $120 a cord for tree length. A huge paper mill yard to unload in and a check when they are done, is pretty appealing to most truckers around here, but you can still buy tree length if you look around. It just cost $120 a cord instead of $85.

Similar to here. Semi load of birch last year was $100/cord and red oak was $120 this year from my friends who are not scroungers.

I figure I can scrounge for about $25-30 a cord if hauled from cabin area to home.

 

[Hinerman]

Fuel cost after multiple transports would make that a lot of effort for little gain I would think. Firewood is pretty well a local business for this reason, among others. You ever see the Seinfeld episode where Kramer and Newman try to profit from turning in bottles? Yeah, kinda like that.

I have never seen one episode of Seinfeld. My mother, on the other hand, has seen every episode multiple times.

The fuel cost would or could be very minimal depending on how far you have to travel; and, you may get a 10-20 cord order of green wood delivered for free, incurring no fuel cost. I think in the right circumstance buying green wood and sitting on it for a year could be very profitable for very little labor involved. Companies buy and sell for a profit every day. But, for now, I will cut and split myself. Why would I want to take all the fun out of what I like to do?

 

[mainewoods]

Many (most) of the bigger wood dealers buy their wood tree length. Cheaper than running a logging crew in most cases. At $80 -$100 a cord ( ave.) and sold for $285+ seasoned, it's more profitable to sit on it and sell it at seasoned prices. But there are smaller dealers ( large ones also) that sell green as fast as they can get it. Some places let you load and haul it yourself for a slightly lower price. On any given weekend it seems every other vehicle is a pick up truck loaded down with firewood.

 

[blackdogon57]

In my world sitting on firewood for long periods of time doesn't work. In log form and cut and split I can store around 60-80 cords at a time in my yard. The faster I can turn those 60-80 cords over the more money I make. 80% of my sales are green or semi dry wood and I am usually sold out by mid August. My regular customers know that they will have to store their wood for six months or so before winter. I also hate doing deliveries once the cold weather hits. Most of my sales are at full market price with no discount for unseasoned wood. The important thing is to be honest about the moisture content of the wood being sold.

 

[svk]

One thing here is the huge increase in biomass. Some loggers chip everything they cut regardless of species. And since you can chip crown and all the amount of $ received from biomass is comparable to what would come in from mid grade pulp on the same trees. In turn this drives up the price of pulp and hence firewood.

 

[CRThomas]

I sell only Bundled firewood as I process the the wood for my bundling business out of three cord one cord is knots that don't bundle pretty so I pile them up and sell them for $35.00 a rank. It green or dry I don't care it's as is. I have five women customers that burn about six truck loads a year. I deliver them about three to four ton each time they didn't know what was dry and what was green so I had them buy them a meter. They pay me when they can if I didn't do it that way I would push it over the hill. Other people that want it cash and carry where it's at. That's cheap but it keeps my place neat and organized. You price is your position. My logs are about 90 per cent free other than the works some times I buy a semi load when I get lazy. I got two semi loads of 20 to 23 inch logs. My price is going up do to the fact that I just bought a building and six acre. Storage is expensive. Power / water / some maintance three house trailers to burn and get rid of then it makes me mad when somebody say $35.00 for that and I have to load it to no now it's a $100.00 a truck load. (Later)

 

[CTYank]

No mention yet of the "rubber ruler" implicit in measuring wet/dry cordwood. Not the ruler's fault. On drying (lose the term "seasoning") wood shrinks in volume from 9 to 15%. Ever notice how a stack of green wood shrinks as it dries?

Boiled down, selling a cord of green wood for the same price as fully air-dried can net you almost another sixth. Good scam.

 

[Full Chisel]

Good point there. But is there any concrete evidence to prove that amount of volume loss? Obviously there is a lot of weight lost due to evaporation, but when the water is wicked from the wood pores do the pores really shrink that much? The specific amount would probably depend on the species and water content when cut. It does shrink a bit for sure.

"Seasoned" is a widely used and accepted term for dried wood, as well as "cured"...at least it is around here. I don't see the issue with using those terms.

 

[woodbooga]

Time is money. It takes time to season wood and a smart customer should know this and be able to differentiate between a commodity (green wood they need to season) vs. a value added product (wood ready to burn on delivery). I don't live in a market where people don't know the difference, so in Northern New England, green is significantly discounted - usually about 20%. I liked the earlier grasshopper/ant comparison. Those that know the differene and can plan will buy green at a discount and add their own value.

As also said earlier, some don't plan and place orders in January and are stuck with what they can get - which is usually green at a non-discounted price per the law of supply and demand.

 

[woodbooga]

Oh crap. Space is money, too. The real estate you keep your stacks on is a cost. At least an opportunity cost. A committed 'green only' dealer could process more on that space and do a larger volume.

Labor's important, but just one leg in a 3-legged stool of time, labor, and real estate. And if you're selling green and concerned about labor investments, don't even stack. Save a step and optimize an efficiency since seasoned isn't part of what you sell for any higher margin.

 

[CTYank]

Good point there. But is there any concrete evidence to prove that amount of volume loss? Obviously there is a lot of weight lost due to evaporation, but when the water is wicked from the wood pores do the pores really shrink that much? The specific amount would probably depend on the species and water content when cut. It does shrink a bit for sure.

"Seasoned" is a widely used and accepted term for dried wood, as well as "cured"...at least it is around here. I don't see the issue with using those terms.

DAGS on wood shrinkage on drying. It's almost entirely confined to radial and tangential shrinkage, essentially zero longitudinally.
Search and you shall find. Expect to see total volumetric loss of 9-15 %. Of course it depends on species. If you ever stack green wood in any sort of enclosure, just watch the gap above continually grow.

Lumber processors talk about drying of wood, via kiln or air. That has meaning, and can be objectively measured, as "%MC dry-basis". "Seasoning" involves arm-waving, fuzziness and, in fact, scams. In Ohio, wood with MC < 50% can be legally called seasoned. In CT same label can be applied legally if the wood was cut 6 mos. back. I can easily see that the term is meaningless, except for extracting cash from the gullible. Just another facilitator of ripoffs, in addition to shorting volume, and mixing in sassafras.

 

[Philbert]

The key term here is 'time value of money'.

Yes, it takes the same amount of your labor to process the wood (unless you deliver it right off the splitter), but you get your money right away. In other words, would you rather have $200 right now, or in a year? Can you make any money or do something with that cash if you got it now? What would the bank charge you to use that $200 for a year?

So maybe $180 today is worth more to you than $200 in a year. Especially if you have cash flow concerns.

Philbert

 

[Full Chisel]

Again, great posts. I can see where fuzzy descriptions could muddy the waters but then again, the same seller could use the term "dried" for wood that is still essentially wet on the inside. It all comes down to honesty and integrity and these days that can be seriously lacking in favor of quick profit.

 

[woodbooga]

The key term here is 'time value of money'.

Yes, it takes the same amount of your labor to process the wood (unless you deliver it right off the splitter), but you get your money right away. In other words, would you rather have $200 right now, or in a year? Can you make any money or do something with that cash if you got it now? What would the bank charge you to use that $200 for a year?

So maybe $190 today is worth more to you than $200 in a year. Especially if you have cash flow concerns.

Philbert

That's the exact calculation. On-the-truck-off-the-truck-pay-me is best when the marginal differential is small and opportunities for a turnaround are there.

In a perfect world, every new customer buys a 2 year supply at the outset. One seasoned and one green. They then roll forward buying one green at whatever the market rate is so they are always a year ahead - with their second year bought in year 1 supply being seasoned, and new supplies seasoning going forward.

Accomplishing this on scale is worth the sacrifice of a 10%-25% cord because you can plan on supply -and know that no one is pissed about having wet wood.

 

[snoozeys]

I dont sell any wood that hasnt been down for less than 10 years

 

[CRThomas]

I just read where a fellow sold 23000 cord of firewood a year.

 

[snoozeys]

Mass production

 

[mainewoods]

Fuel cost after multiple transports would make that a lot of effort for little gain I would think. Firewood is pretty well a local business for this reason, among others. You ever see the Seinfeld episode where Kramer and Newman try to profit from turning in bottles? Yeah, kinda like that.

Not quite like that.. Newman used his USPS truck (and probably his USPS gas card) to haul the load. No transportation costs. It would have worked, except for one thing --- the Kramer Factor.

 

[svk]

One thing I forgot to previously mention also is that since housing started to decline, over half of the loggers in my area have went out of business. Lots of iron to service and if you are aren't cutting you aren't paying. The longest tenured and cash operators are still around, the newer and/or debt dependent companies have folded. Same with sawmills due to less lumber demand and increase in biomass.

The one semi-commercial firewood guy near me is selling birch that I consider "green" for $300 a cord this year...

 

[CRThomas]

All the new homes in my area are million dollar home and have as high as 3 to 4 fire places and they use them. For looks and heat