Which 2-stage pump?

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pelhamjeff

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I'm gonna quit being stubborn and put a 2-stage pump on my splitter. I think I'll be glad I did it. I have a Briggs and Stratton 8-horse horizontal shaft engine and a 4-inch tie rod cylinder. I have read that a rule of thumb is to try to have 1/2 horsepower per GPM. I would rather have a little more than that so I don't have to run the engine so hard. OK, if I look at specs on Northern's website, I see GPM given for the first and second stage. I need to know if I should be trying to match my engine size to !st or 2nd stage GPM. I will buy the highest capacity pump that my engine can run comfortably, but I dont want one that will be too much for it-I have that now! Thanks for reading!
 
you will find three sizes,put the 16gpm on, it i think the the small one is 11 or 12, but the price difference in the 16 to the 22 is huge,i'm running a 16 with a 5" cyl. it's kinda slow,however i can cut,not split, a peice of red oak in half crosswise as tall as the wedge. 50 ton at least, i would be better suited with the 22 for a little more speed,but you have plenty of power for a 16GPM, TSC has them.
 
Go with a 16 GPM,its a perfect match for the 8hp you have.Also your 4" cyl will cycle nice and fast with 16 GPM.
 
Sorry for the OP, don't mean to but in, but I have a few questions also.

I have a B&S 16 hp twin. What should I go for a hydraulic pump?

Now I have a little twist for this equation. I want to also run a hydraulic auger/woodlift at the same time. If I build this right then the wood lift should not tax the pump to much and stay in first stage. Or would it just be better to just run a single stage pump and work the system around that?

Glenn
 
Sorry for the OP, don't mean to but in, but I have a few questions also.

I have a B&S 16 hp twin. What should I go for a hydraulic pump?

Now I have a little twist for this equation. I want to also run a hydraulic auger/woodlift at the same time. If I build this right then the wood lift should not tax the pump to much and stay in first stage. Or would it just be better to just run a single stage pump and work the system around that?

Glenn

How 'bout we start a new thread about your question?
 
With an eight horse engine go with the 16 gpm 2-stage pump it will allow maximun pressures in both stages without stalling the engine.

Horsepower requirements are a combination of gpm and psi.
 
If I went with that 13.6 GPM model, wouldn't I then have a slightly more powerful engine than is required? What would be the negative aspect of that situation? Does anybody disagree with buying from Northern? Does anybody want to buy a single stage pump capable of 5000 PSI if the right engine is connected to it?
 
If I went with that 13.6 GPM model, wouldn't I then have a slightly more powerful engine than is required? yes

The negative aspect is you would be wasting fuel and needless wear.

Pumps are rated at X gpm @ X rpms, as rpms decrease so does gallons per minute.

If you want to be easy on your engine get a 16 gpm 2-stage pump and run it at just over 3/4 throttle and it will put out 13.6 gpm.

A single stage pump at 5000 psi would require 3+ hp. per gallon of flow compared to 2 hp. per gallon of flow at 3000 psi.
 
If I went with that 13.6 GPM model, wouldn't I then have a slightly more powerful engine than is required? What would be the negative aspect of that situation? Does anybody disagree with buying from Northern? Does anybody want to buy a single stage pump capable of 5000 PSI if the right engine is connected to it?

Stop trying to baby your engine,you have an 8hp engine,use it! Buying a smaller pump will just work the engine even harder,it wont have much of a load on it,will waste fuel and engine life,and waste your time.It will cycle slower,and you will need maximum RPMS to cycle .The bigger pump will allow you to run the engine either slower or faster,and still have quick cycle times,it will only work the engine hard when in a knot,but a 16gpm will only work the engine within its rated work load.
 
Stop trying to baby your engine,you have an 8hp engine,use it! Buying a smaller pump will just work the engine even harder,it wont have much of a load on it,will waste fuel and engine life,and waste your time.It will cycle slower,and you will need maximum RPMS to cycle .The bigger pump will allow you to run the engine either slower or faster,and still have quick cycle times,it will only work the engine hard when in a knot,but a 16gpm will only work the engine within its rated work load.

"will work the engine harder, it wont have much of a load on it" confuses me. If there is not much of a load, then I can decrease the engine rpm and decrease engine wear, right? I dont know hydraulics and dont want to be argumentative, but the way you and trip are explaining this is the opposite of how I imagine it to work.
 
"will work the engine harder, it wont have much of a load on it" confuses me. If there is not much of a load, then I can decrease the engine rpm and decrease engine wear, right? I dont know hydraulics and dont want to be argumentative, but the way you and trip are explaining this is the opposite of how I imagine it to work.

I will try to explain it this way
There are two 55 gallon drums of water at the bottom of a hill and two empty drums at the top. A man at the first drum has a bucket that holds 16 cups of water and the man at the second drum has a bucket that holds 13 cups of water. They both have to transfer the water to the drums at the top of the hill in the same amount of time.

The weight of each bucket is comfortable ( hp. required )
The hill equals pressure
How many trips that have to be made to fill the drums ( cycle time )

The man with the smaller bucket has to make more trips and move faster to get the job done. ( work harder )
 
Go with a 16GPM pump. No sense in not using all of the power of the engine. I just put a Haldex from TSC on mine. I have yet to split with it, but it should save about 5 seconds per cycle over my 11GPM pump.:clap:
 
I will try to explain it this way
There are two 55 gallon drums of water at the bottom of a hill and two empty drums at the top. A man at the first drum has a bucket that holds 16 cups of water and the man at the second drum has a bucket that holds 13 cups of water. They both have to transfer the water to the drums at the top of the hill in the same amount of time.

The weight of each bucket is comfortable ( hp. required )
The hill equals pressure
How many trips that have to be made to fill the drums ( cycle time )

The man with the smaller bucket has to make more trips and move faster to get the job done. ( work harder )

OK I guess what I'm stuck on is how at any given time, the guy with the 13 cup bucket is having an easier time, putting less wear and tear on the cartilage in his joints, but he will indeed have to work after the other guy has popped open a cold one. So the wear on the 13 cup man's knees will probably catch up-or will it? Is the intensity of the work what wears the engine, or is it more the length of the workday? I'm not trying to come up with an academic argument. If I run my engine at 3/4 throttle, not developing the full rated power, that will mean I work longer to cut the same amount of wood as the guy at wide open throttle. But if my engine lasts longer than his, that is where I come out ahead. With a pump of less displacement, this is what I would try to accomplish.
 
11 and 13 have the same small gear section, so the horsepower to turn both are the same when it kicks to low flow/high pressure. 13 gives you more speed in low pressure/high flow mode, so even with 5 or 6 hp engines, I'd go 13 gpm pump over the 11.

With 8 hp engine I would for sure go with the 16 gpm pump. You only use the 5 or so hp if you put on the 11 or 13 pumps.


Several different discussions are intermingled here and creating confusion.
1. GPM or flow is a function of how big the 'cups' are and how many trips the guy makes per minute. Bigger gear pumps = bigger 'cups'. Number of trips is rpm of the pump shaft, so a 16 gpm pump is 16 gpm only when turned at 3600 rpm. 11 or 13 gpm are that only at 3600 rpm also.

Should be obvious then if the 16 gpm pump is run at 2400 engine rpm, it will put out 2400/3600 or 2/3 of the number of trips per minute or 2/3 of the flow or about 11 gpm. Therefore, if your 8 hp engine at 3600 rpm and 16 gpm is too fast, just run it at 2400 rpm and have 11 gpm output.


2. Force at the log is purely pressure times cylinder area. Unless the pump or cylinder seals are leaking so badly that the entire pump flow is across the leak and the system cannot build pressure, the maximum pressure is always limited by either the load moving or the relief valve dumping the oil. Force at the log has NOTHING to do with engine rpm, (or engine horsepower either if the engine is big enough to turn the load). There is a mental effect of the engine roaring away, but engine rpm is flow which is SPEED, not force. Pressure is force. An idling engine that can turn the pump at 2500 psi will split exactly the same log as it will at 3600 rpm and 2500 psi. It will be deathly slow, but the force is the same. (Now, there are some dynamics in the wood that cause the split to progress better and faster if the wedge speed is higher, but that is another discussion.)
So when someone says ‘my splitter handles everything at half throttle, imagine what it would do at full throttle’ I sort of chuckle. It would go faster but have exactly the same force.


3. Engine hp required is s function of flow and pressure.
Hp is (“flow gpm” times “pressure psi”) divided by 1714.
A simpler formula to remember, and to account for pump mechanical efficiency and losses, is ( gpm x psi) / 1500
High flow times low pressure = hp
Low flow times high pressure = hp.

REQUIRED hp is a function of the load and the pump. AVAILABLE hp is the engine. Engine governor controls the throttle opening to hold the speed setting. (Governors always have droop, they cannot hold a true constant speed, but I won’t go there.)
Simplifying, (a lot): If the load requires 8 hp and the engine is 5 hp, the governor senses speed droop, opens the throttle fully trying to hold 3600 rpm, but engine can only produce 5 hp and it stalls.
If the load requires 8 hp and the engine is 10 hp max, the governor opens the throttle maybe 90% until it produces 8 hp at 3600 rpm, turns the load, and holds its speed.
If the load requires 8 hp, and the engine is 80 hp max, the governor opens maybe 10% and produces the 8 hp at 3600 rpm. More engine than needed doesn’t make the splitter stronger.

4. Then, would the engine last longer ‘not working as hard’? Way larger topic, involves fuel consumption curves, stressing the components, etc. Sure, the 8 hp engine would last longer running a 5 hp 11 gpm pump at 2/3 throttle (but still at 3600 rpm) than pulling 8 hp running the 16 gpm pump at 3600 rpm.
Would it last longer running the 16 gpm pump at 2400 rpm, 2/3 speed for 11 gpm, or running the 11 gpm pump at 3600 rpm? My money is on lower rpm heavier loaded. Very little of the time is it actually at full hp anyway. In reality, I want the job done faster. Will the engine last longer running 2/3 hour at 16 gpm at 3600 rpm and splitting all the wood, or running for an hour at 2400 rpm at lower flow and taking longer to split the wood? My guess is it doesn’t matter one whit for engine life. Working it harder or working it longer is a wash. In these applications it is pretty much a function of total work done and wood split. The number of hours is so low and the loads are so small that with proper maintenance the engines will last longer than I will. Our big industrial engines almost 24/7 run 10,000 to 20,000 hours between overhauls, so 100 hours is small potatoes.

Personally, no question I would go with the 16 gpm pump. Then you can use the hp you have, can choose to use the flow and speed at 3600 engine rpm, or dial down the speed if it is too fast.
I have seen occasions when the splitter is too small but I got by. I have seen many occasions when it is too slow and I was frustrated. But I don’t think I have ever seen when it was too fast and I wished for a smaller pump.

kcj
 
"will work the engine harder, it wont have much of a load on it" confuses me. If there is not much of a load, then I can decrease the engine rpm and decrease engine wear, right? I dont know hydraulics and dont want to be argumentative, but the way you and trip are explaining this is the opposite of how I imagine it to work.

Ok,on paper you are correct,you can decrease the RPM,which will quiet things down a little,and may even save a small amount of engine wear.The thing you are not factoring into this equation is time and productivity.They play a larger role than engine speed IMO.You theory about increasing engine life,here is my take on that subject. First off, lets start with the engine,since air cooled engines are built to run at a steady 3200-3600 usually,There cooling fan,and fins are designed to move the correct amount of air over the cooling fins at those engine speeds.They are also designed with respect to ignition timing,camshaft,compression,carburation and exhaust to deliver the most HP per pound of engine weight,and per gallon of fuel at those speeds.Now the 13GPM pump is only a 9 GPM,and its not running as fast as it could be,so it also is having to run longer times to split the same amount of wood,so it gets more time put on it.Like I said,you can run it slower,but you probably will not save any fuel or egnine wear when you factor in production.Instead of splitting 10 cord in 10 hrs for example,it now takes you 12.5 hours since you decided to run it at 2700RPM instead of 3600RPM.I hope your following this.In 12.5 hours at 2700 you will burn more fuel than 10 hours at 3600,and have more engine wear in 12.5 hrs than 10,the wear doesnt offset the time.
So what it going to happen if you buy the 13,you are goingto run the engine at the high end of the rpm range because it is slower with the 13gpm pump,OR run it slow,and take forever to split everything .With the 16GPM pump you will be done and inside by the fire,and you will not need to run the engine at the high end,you will be able to run it a little slower,and still have fast ram speed.In knots,it will work the engine a little harder than the 13GPM,but the load is within the designed limits of the engine,so it isn't going to add any appreciable wear for the few seconds it takes to go thru it,and shift back to the 2nd stage,and lower load.With 90% of your cutting,you will blow right thru the wood, with fast cycle time,and a nice engine speed.
One last comparison I can think of is a pickup truck. 2 of the same trucks,both 1 ton chassis cabs,both need to carry 3 tons of wood 100 miles back and forth.We needot move 30 cord this week. First truck has a 292 inline 6(this is actually my old dump truck a 65 C30,it has a 4 speed manual and 4.11 gears.It can run 60 mph all day,but at over 3300RPM.It has enough power to run the wood all day by using the mechanical advantage of 4.11 gearing.This gearing makes up for the small engine by spinning it faster at a given road speed,but not so high that its outside its designed rpm range.This truck is slow to accelerate,and works hard,but it gets the job done. truck #1 represents your typical 5-6hp splitter w 11/13GPM pump and 4" cyl.Say you are building truck #2,but you have a 454 under the hood of this truck. Using your theory,your going to save engine life on this truck by deciding to buy a 4.11 axle for it as well,and additionally you are going to reduce engine speed while running this wood every day.My theory says,since were buying a rear end anyway,lets go with a 3.42 or 3.73 and let the big engines torque do the work,so we can maintain road speed with a touch less engine speed and get done in less time,saving my valuable time, fuel,and wear.So if we have 30 cord to move,you will be still moving it on day 4,I'll be out tinkering with my saws in the garage,since i finished in 3 days.You think you are saving wear and fuel though.I burnt 2 gallons an hour,for 20 hrs,you are only burning 1.6 per hour,but you need to run 26 hours to do the same work.My engine MAY wear out in 3500 hours,and yours lasts 3800.

The point I was trying to make is the bigger pump will do more work in less time,and with less engine speed.That is why I would buy it.If you only had 5HP,then yes a 13GPM pump would be the one,as a 16GPM may overload it in knotty wood.You have 8HP,use it!:greenchainsaw:
 
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