Windsail reduction--effective or waste of time

[southsoundtree]

I've heard different things about windsail reduction.

some say its the key, others a waste, others negatively affecting the tree due to lost photosynthetic potential, lost energy stores, and wounds to deal with.

Some people strip out the inner canopy that they can reach from the bole, others remove whole branches back to the bole, others branch reduction/ limb end work.

Does anyone have any research about different treatments for different types of trees?

Anecdotal evidence?

 

[1I'dJak]

well the forest industry here in bc puts money into reducing windsail along the edges of some of their cuts....studies performed by a fellow named stephen mitchell seemed to point that this led to less windthrow...however, overall health of the tree isn't as important to the foresters as keeping an edge... We top or spiral prune... the spiral prunes don't look pretty...definetly not residential standards...Personally I have visually seen and felt the difference in a wind, being at the top of a 'windfirmed' as to one not treated.

 

[RedlineIt]

southsoundtree,

There has been quite a bit of research done on windfirming in British Columbia as it relates to preventing windthrow along the edges of logging cutblocks. Here is one, reduced to the basics for general orientation purposes:

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfp/training/00015/lesson5/5-print.htm

Anecdotally, I've revisited some large firs I have thinned residentially, and I approach it as a spiral prune and thorough crown cleaning, removing anything crossed up, rubbing, cracked, growing into a large mat and of course all the deadwood. Any heavily levered branches I don't want to remove get an end weight reduction. Nothing looks the worse for it so far.

RedlineIt

 

[RedlineIt]

1I'dJak,

... the spiral prunes don't look pretty...definetly not residential standards...

You must be doing A spiral prune differently in the bush than I do it residentially. Most my clients think the tree looks great, "All cleaned up like that."

RedlineIt

 

[clearance]

Jak and Redline are right, it works. I have done it, seen my share of big blowdown and seen the windfirmed trees still standing.

 

[OLD CHIPMONK]

Taller trees with all sectional leads attached closer to the base present a greater wind-sail hazard when lion-tailed. They are better served with slight crown-reduction & responsible thinning.
Trees with scaffold-branches present no wind-sail hazard when properly pruned. Crown-reduction would be rare. Exceptions might include high-winds or ice-storms.

 

[1I'dJak]

a forestry prune is way diff't then a resi prune...forestry pruning is all about production an minimizing hangers, so you often skin up a side to have an area to send your branches...plus we're swinging over from tree to tree with our climb line and a grapple with 7mil line... So you often skin up the side of the tree you're gonna be swinging from, so you got a good spot to throw your grapple...

 

[ropensaddle]

Taller trees with all sectional leads attached closer to the base present a greater wind-sail hazard when lion-tailed. They are better served with slight crown-reduction & responsible thinning.
Trees with scaffold-branches present no wind-sail hazard when properly pruned. Crown-reduction would be rare. Exceptions might include high-winds or ice-storms.

Yep crossing branches,poor attachments first then careful thinning and
keeping structure very important. I always try to leave enough to not lions
tail and try to take undesirable leave a desirable when thinning and it seems
to come out very well in spring flurry.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Exceptions might include high-winds or ice-storms.

So true, since any tree will fail, at least partially under the wrong conditions, we are there to decrease the risk of failure.

I've worked enough storms where prior pruning appeared to have saved trees where neighboring trees were devastated.

Any heavily levered branches I don't want to remove get an end weight reduction.

To me this is the key, weather it is coniferous or deciduous. Most trees carry a surplus of dynamic mass (photosynthetic to include younger bark) so cyclical pruning does not harm.

If the tree is highly stressed from either biotic or abiotic factors, then adding the stress of pruning may force it into the "spiral of death" or a defensive decline.

Old trees can be pushed from stasis to senescent decline.

The trick is to get to the tips and avoid work on the inner canopy. Reductions should be made with an eye to dynamics and moment of bend.

Trees may be self optimizing, but they can only add for current loading. New foliage, seed loads, and future weather cannot be a factor in optimization since it is a natural process.

A good practitioner can use structural improvements (as mentioned above) in with the concept of increasing stability. I would add modifying growth direction where lower canopy is conflicting/competing/crowding inner and upper canopy

 

[RedlineIt]

1I'dJak,

a forestry prune is way diff't then a resi prune...forestry pruning is all about production an minimizing hangers, so you often skin up a side to have an area to send your branches...plus we're swinging over from tree to tree with our climb line and a grapple with 7mil line... So you often skin up the side of the tree you're gonna be swinging from, so you got a good spot to throw your grapple...

Got it. So my resi method of tying a limb off with slings, cutting it, rapping down a bit to haul it into the trunk, then dicing it up into chuckable pieces would be just a wee bit time consuming...


Old Chip,

Given that the OP southsound is from WA, I figured he was asking about excurrent trees, specifically big west coast conifers. I could be wrong. But you are absolutely correct that lion-tailing is setting a tree up for failure, for sure.


RedlineIt

 

[southsoundtree]

1I'dJak,



Old Chip,

Given that the OP southsound is from WA, I figured he was asking about excurrent trees, specifically big west coast conifers. I could be wrong. But you are absolutely correct that lion-tailing is setting a tree up for failure, for sure.


RedlineIt

Yes excurrent trees primarily.
The one "method" that seems most debunked is the inner canopy removal/ liontailing. I think that this is what people can reach when they are only climbing conifer with lanyards.

Some people site Dr. Ed Gilman's work as evidence against windthinning/ windsail reduction.

A lot of anecdotal evidence for WSR so far in this thread.

Anecdotally, flush cuts and topping were good answers to problems in the past, though over time this has changed. Is WSR another of these??

It sure is being performed, though is it really a good practice?

What about energy absorbtion/ dissipation by limbs, and what happens to trees that have had some of these absorbers removed??




End-weight reduction--- is its purpose to reduce the likelihood of windthrown trees or just reduce limb breakage? Opinions.

 

[southsoundtree]

Taller trees with all sectional leads attached closer to the base present a greater wind-sail hazard when lion-tailed. They are better served with slight crown-reduction & responsible thinning.
Trees with scaffold-branches present no wind-sail hazard when properly pruned. Crown-reduction would be rare. Exceptions might include high-winds or ice-storms.

OC-

What do you mean about high-winds and ice-storms as exceptions. That's the real problems that people are trying to figure out solutions to.

We get lots of wind up here. Vary rarely snow and ice, as compared to other parts of the country, however we just go out from under record snowfall. There was an ice storm here about 12 years back. Trees failing under these conditions is what panics people, and causes them to seek out "expert" opinions. Would you elaborate, please?

 

[southsoundtree]

RE: spiral pruning

Would people elaborate on spiral pruning for forestry and residential settings, please?

Methods, purposes, reasons for these methods being the ones used--I guess that is to say there origins and any backing for them.

 

[clearance]

Would people elaborate on spiral pruning for forestry and residential settings, please?

Methods, purposes, reasons for these methods being the ones used--I guess that is to say there origins and any backing for them.

Forestry windfirming is only to prevent trees from blowing down into creeks and other riparian areas and staying alive untill the understory grows up. This is so the creek stays shaded, mainly. It is just whack off about 20% of the limbs and top it at about 6"-8". It is not pretty, not approved by some, but who cares, its all about production and keeping the riparian area intact.

Forestry is miles and miles of trees, by a couple of hundred feet wide. It ain't one or two trees in someones yard, for that you can spurless around and take all day.

 

[frodo]

i thinned the crown in a mature acer sacarum today about 40in dbh . i feel that i extended the life of this tree. it was located fifteen ft. away from a home and had never been pruned. i feel it was either only remove dead dying diseased broken rubbing and then let a big storm break half the top out. or thin it and hope that everything compartmentalizes well. i feel the latter is the lesser of the two evils. if i were to thin a juvenile tree i feel i would not need to remove as much canopy

 

[TreeTopKid]

I've heard different things about windsail reduction.

some say its the key, others a waste, others negatively affecting the tree due to lost photosynthetic potential, lost energy stores, and wounds to deal with.

Some people strip out the inner canopy that they can reach from the bole, others remove whole branches back to the bole, others branch reduction/ limb end work.

Does anyone have any research about different treatments for different types of trees?

Anecdotal evidence?

There was a study titled The Effects of Pruning on Drag and Bending Movement of Shade Trees in Arboriculture & Urban Forestry. Scientific Journal of the ISA. Volume 34 No4 July 2008.

It was was an interesting article, and it showed that there were a lot of variables to apply with regards to species, size/dimension of the crown, wind velocity, and mass (tree mass). For example wind speed is often substantially greater than at the base therefore removing the lower branches would less effectively reduce drag than reduction pruning.

In the conclusion it also noted that "pruning recommendations cannot be developed exclusively in light of mechanical considerations. Physiological considerations are also important as are the incidence of decay and regrowth after pruning. Further studies are needed to help determine pruning recommendations in terms of species, age, health, site conditions, tree risk, and aesthetics".

It's well worth you reading as there are a lot of hard facts, and statistics pertaining to particular species. I hope this helps.

 

[OLD CHIPMONK]

In my opinion.......residential or institutional topping, lion-tailing or improper use of a branch-bark collar, leads to insect infestation, nutrient deficiency, heart-rot & the eventual demise of once healthy specimens.
......Icestorms.....Hurricanes....Tornadoes......Floods.....Lightning -strikes.....to me, are an Act of God. Unfortunately, severe damage during catastrophic events is not preventable. We agree to disagree.......:agree2:

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Many oppinions from members are given thru....Wisdom....something learned thru life.... such as...... done that.....been there.....works for me....... old school...... shade-tree mechanics.....etc. Never discount old age......
just consider it History......like yesterday's posts

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[ropensaddle]

i thinned the crown in a mature acer sacarum today about 40in dbh . i feel that i extended the life of this tree. it was located fifteen ft. away from a home and had never been pruned. i feel it was either only remove dead dying diseased broken rubbing and then let a big storm break half the top out. or thin it and hope that everything compartmentalizes well. i feel the latter is the lesser of the two evils. if i were to thin a juvenile tree i feel i would not need to remove as much canopy

Yes sir that is fact if pruned proper as a young tree to develop structure
and train the tree many future problems could be minimized. Unfortunately
we get them many times after a hack has mutilated them and have to focus
merely on risk reduction and preservation. It is a shame imo of course some
times you come to a yard that has had previous proper care and you have
little to do.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

The knowledge & expierience base afforded by this site ranks 2nd. to none. A step above most......like Viagara..... best of all....FREE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So we give you a chubbie

 

[jomoco]

Interesting question that a very old and wise woman answered best when I curiously asked her why she had bowling balls tied to the ends of the lower lateral branches of her large eucalyptus trees?

She answered, " I want those branches to grow plenty of muscle so I can hang big potted plants on them without breaking them, they need dynamic weight loads applied to them to build that muscle, just like us!"

I agreed with her as I marveled at her accurate insight and analogy.

jomoco