Windsail reduction--effective or waste of time

[ropensaddle]

Interesting question that a very old and wise woman answered best when I curiously asked her why she had bowling balls tied to the ends of the lower lateral branches of her large eucalyptus trees?

She answered, " I want those branches to grow plenty of muscle so I can hang big potted plants on them without breaking them, they need dynamic weight loads applied to them to build that muscle, just like us!"

I agreed with her as I marveled at her accurate insight and analogy.

jomoco

:hmm3grin2orange: new methods we can add to our portfolio but if we do
bowling ball stock would go up a tree full of bowling balls to build
tension and compression wood lol.

 

[jefflovstrom]

As you can see, I don't post alot, but like to read you guys stuff. Anyway, in my experience, the retention of parent wood is the main factor. There are eucs in Corpus Christie that stand after hurricanes due to wind sail reduction and retention of parent wood.
Jeff Lovstrom
Good topic, though

 

[kano]

The way I see it is that taking the lower branchs can in fact raise the chance of windthrow in some way, You are taking away some sail true, but you are also taking away from the Axiom of Uniform Stress (ref:Claus Mattheck) plus you are also creating a higher leverage, I feel it is much more efficient to reduce the length of the branches, not to much that you stress the tree but just enough to make a differance, and where possible depending on species reduce the height.
As mentioned by some of the other guys dead, crossing over, damaged and week branches should be the first to go if even only them,
This is only my opinion

 

[ropensaddle]

Pruning and phc has too many variables for a one size fits all. the plants genetic potential combined with the environment and the individual plants growth rate all play a huge part in my decisions. The fact that the same species can according to the growing conditions, grow completely out of the species normal genetic potential and form; stresses the need for plant by plant care. The one constant is our need, as professionals, to make careful site by site analysis before a systematic approach is made. Many of you are way more skilled in this process than I and even if the known is related to the sometimes uncaring or misunderstanding client, does not mean they will accept a minimal intrusive treatment. What do we do with that? I mean when they expect a differance but the best thing for the tree is light pruning and monitoring how do you sell that to person's wanting change over fears of a failing tree? I also ask should you, liability wise?

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Pruning and phc has too many variables for a one size fits all.

As mentioned by some of the other guys dead, crossing over, damaged and week branches should be the first to go if even only them,

The dogmatic response of dead and crossing can increase risk of failure too.

Trees with heavy deadwood loads can have moment of bend and dynamic loading radically changed, to the point where you have a de facto lionstail.

Oftentimes a crossing union can become support for the upper branch, as co mingled canopies with a lot of little crossings can support a large low limb.

 

[TreeTopKid]

[QUOT. Many of you are way more skilled in this process than I and even if the known is related to the sometimes uncaring or misunderstanding client, does not mean they will accept a minimal intrusive treatment. What do we do with that? I mean when they expect a differance but the best thing for the tree is light pruning and monitoring how do you sell that to person's wanting change over fears of a failing tree? I also ask should you, liability wise?[/QUOTE]

I think a lot of us wrestle with that one! I always make sure that the customer is aware of all the facts pertaining to their tree, but any decision they make regarding work being carried out, or not is ultimately theirs. If I really consider the tree to be a liability I always make sure I put in writing (regardless of whether it's a paying consultation or not) my concerns about their tree followed by a disclaimer. At least then if anything were to go 'pear shaped' you have legal documentation that they decided not to act on your advice.

 

[ropensaddle]

The dogmatic response of dead and crossing can increase risk of failure too.

Trees with heavy deadwood loads can have moment of bend and dynamic loading radically changed, to the point where you have a de facto lionstail.

Oftentimes a crossing union can become support for the upper branch, as co mingled canopies with a lot of little crossings can support a large low limb.

:agree2: However heavy dead wood loads could suggest specimen is in a
mortality spiral. I don't believe I will recommend leaving many dead limbs
for safety.

 

[ropensaddle]

[QUOT. Many of you are way more skilled in this process than I and even if the known is related to the sometimes uncaring or misunderstanding client, does not mean they will accept a minimal intrusive treatment. What do we do with that? I mean when they expect a differance but the best thing for the tree is light pruning and monitoring how do you sell that to person's wanting change over fears of a failing tree? I also ask should you, liability wise?

I think a lot of us wrestle with that one! I always make sure that the customer is aware of all the facts pertaining to their tree, but any decision they make regarding work being carried out, or not is ultimately theirs. If I really consider the tree to be a liability I always make sure I put in writing (regardless of whether it's a paying consultation or not) my concerns about their tree followed by a disclaimer. At least then if anything were to go 'pear shaped' you have legal documentation that they decided not to act on your advice.[/QUOTE]

Thanks good advise at least I am not alone

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

:agree2: However heavy dead wood loads could suggest specimen is in a
mortality spiral.

Not necessarily, it could be typical for the species to hold deadwood. Honey locust is a good example, and a way to approach the species is to do a hazard deadwooding and light tip thin, vs getting all the deadwood out on the first trim ever.

 

[ropensaddle]

Not necessarily, it could be typical for the species to hold deadwood. Honey locust is a good example, and a way to approach the species is to do a hazard deadwooding and light tip thin, vs getting all the deadwood out on the first trim ever.

I can see your point but could never sell it here lol.

 

[RedlineIt]

Just to get this topic back to firming big west coast conifers:

You need to start at the very top with secateurs, or a pole pruner if you're timid. Leave wind-sail up there, you've lost the whole point.

On your way down, you need to remove or subordinate any co-doms, eliminate branches that mat with others, reduce end weight to prevent limb breakage and relieve rotational stresses.

The point is to create a tree that the wind blows through, and doesn't get blown around.

RedlineIt

 

[M.D. Vaden]

This will be an interesting subject.

I believe the thinning can help some trees stand better and not break as much, but on the other hand, in regards to not falling over, this also might say something about the root system or soil.

 

[ropensaddle]

This will be an interesting subject.

I believe the thinning can help some trees stand better and not break as much, but on the other hand, in regards to not falling over, this also might say something about the root system or soil.

I would bet more to be said of soil conditions and good root allocations of the trees use of energy, to have the greatest factor in failure of the stem. As in any construction the foundation is the uppermost concern to structural integrity

 

[TreeTopKid]

I think a lot of us wrestle with that one! I always make sure that the customer is aware of all the facts pertaining to their tree, but any decision they make regarding work being carried out, or not is ultimately theirs. If I really consider the tree to be a liability I always make sure I put in writing (regardless of whether it's a paying consultation or not) my concerns about their tree followed by a disclaimer. At least then if anything were to go 'pear shaped' you have legal documentation that they decided not to act on your advice.

Thanks good advise at least I am not alone[/QUOTE]

We're definitely not alone. I have had so many conversations about this with people, and all worry about the same thing. Couple that with the fact some body who is prepared to take legal action is usually prepared to say just about anything to get their settlement makes it a very worrying prospect (try not to resort to sleeping tablets LOL!).

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

On your way down, you need to remove or subordinate any co-doms, eliminate branches that mat with others, reduce end weight to prevent limb breakage and relieve rotational stresses.

I find cone loading a big problem too

 

[treejon]

I remember seeing a seminar with this guy sometime back at an ISA meeting, his set up is pretty impressive. He's got a giant wind machine. Most of the studies are limited to smaller trees though. Still fairly interesting I think.

http://www.ihc.fiu.edu/

just search for trees on the site, have fun sifting through all the info.

 

[jomoco]

Thinking you somehow know better than the tree, which way, how tall, or how thick it should be is presumptuous and preposterous.

That very windsail that you mistakenly assume causes problems is the very dynamic force distribution system forcing the greatest leverage lower in the tree into the very wood big enough to take the strain and remain standing on it's lateral roots.

Branches in close proximity to each other support each other in high winds, effectively limiting their range of motion before encountering support from it's nearby neighbor.

If the dang tree could talk it would beg you to keep your presumptuously mistaken azz out of it and leave it alone until you really understand wht the hell you're doing.

When you finally realise that trees are far better off without us around, you will have taken the first step in becoming a journeyman arborist.

Work with nature, learn from it, enhance it and leave your mistaken assumptions at the door that's always open.

jomoco

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Thinking you somehow know better than the tree, which way, how tall, or how thick it should be is presumptuous and preposterous.

This assumes volition in the growth of the tree, since i do not believe that, I do know better then the tree.

Work with nature, learn from it, enhance it and leave your mistaken assumptions at the door that's always open.

I do not believe that the assumptions are mistaken.

Most trees evolved as communal organisms, and would have shed their lower limbs as they grew in a stand or forest. Large low limbs can compete with upper canopy in open grown forest type trees, which may cause structural problems down the road.

Trees are nodal networks, they increase mass around the nodes that add more to the system. Quite often this increase in mass can compromise the either the integrity of the tree, or its sustainable usefulness in a landscape setting.

Yes we should take the growth habits of the species (and the cultivar in many landscape plants, fastigiate cvs. are a very good example of this) whenever possible. Some people parse it as pruning is working within these boundaries, and trimming is the exception where you work within the needs of the landscape. eg, we prune for long term health and structural formation, and trim for building and utility clearance.

 

[jomoco]

Then let me give you an example of a great arborist emulating nature instead of making a mistaken assumption.

Danny Simpson is the chief arborist at the SD Zoo. He has had the good fortune to travel the world and see firsthand a wide range of tree species in their natural settings, their habits and sometimes unique characteristics.

He applied this knowledge to a few Moreton Bay figs at the zoo with huge spreads by straffing the lower nodules on the bottoms of the lower lateral limbs at carefully calculated points with a razor causing it to drip white sap. He would then place 3 inch perforated PVC tubes stuffed with peet moss directly below and in contact with the wound going straight down to the ground, then placing drip irrigation directly above the wound so it would drip down into the peet moss tubes.

This technique in this and other species of trees triggers the growth of aerial roots from the straffed nodes that will grow straight down these tubes and take root in the ground eventually completely engulfing the tubes. This means of natural support not only increases the tree's structural ability, it also provides it with nourishment and water to grow ever larger over hundreds of years time.

Now compare this technique with that of the presumptuous arborist that cables that same branch for a perceived fault, without maintenance every 20-30 years tha cable becomes a ticking time bomb waiting to go off and achieve exactly the opposite of it's intended purpose of enhancing the tree's structural strength. When that cable degrades and fails it has the potential of splitting that tree in half.

I think Danny's approach is brilliant in that it emulates nature as well as lasts the entire lifespan of the tree, truly a symbiotic relationship that mother nature can smile about.

jomoco

 

[ropensaddle]

Then let me give you an example of a great arborist emulating nature instead of making a mistaken assumption.

Danny Simpson is the chief arborist at the SD Zoo. He has had the good fortune to travel the world and see firsthand a wide range of tree species in their natural settings, their habits and sometimes unique characteristics.

He applied this knowledge to a few Moreton Bay figs at the zoo with huge spreads by straffing the lower nodules on the bottoms of the lower lateral limbs at carefully calculated points with a razor causing it to drip white sap. He would then place 3 inch perforated PVC tubes stuffed with peet moss directly below and in contact with the wound going straight down to the ground, then placing drip irrigation directly above the wound so it would drip down into the peet moss tubes.

This technique in this and other species of trees triggers the growth of aerial roots from the straffed nodes that will grow straight down these tubes and take root in the ground eventually completely engulfing the tubes. This means of natural support not only increases the tree's structural ability, it also provides it with nourishment and water to grow ever larger over hundreds of years time.

Now compare this technique with that of the presumptuous arborist that cables that same branch for a perceived fault, without maintenance every 20-30 years tha cable becomes a ticking time bomb waiting to go off and achieve exactly the opposite of it's intended purpose of enhancing the tree's structural strength. When that cable degrades and fails it has the potential of splitting that tree in half.

I think Danny's approach is brilliant in that it emulates nature as well as lasts the entire lifespan of the tree, truly a symbiotic relationship that mother nature can smile about.

jomoco

Interesting , how does it relate to concerns a client has for their thick
and growing Bradford pear? While I agree nature is the best teacher in
the case of the Bradford pear we have been taught over and over it
is and inferior species, that was also a tampering with nature product.
It takes all factors to determine the best plan, however I have few
customers that will pay for that time to be taken they want it cut,
or trimmed to their idea of what they believe it needs. I am envious
of some of you that must have customers that will pay you for time
with a hand lens and risistograph. I cherish a customer here that
will actually take the time to listen and pay for proper care. I have not
found that magical customer yet willing to pay a living to care for his trees.