Wiseco piston update from Baileys

[Maldeney]

Perfect post! +1 Indiansprings

Very well said!

 

[blackoak]

I'm going to go out on a limb and state what I see after 25 years of doing business at a very high level (now retired) and consulting to Fortune 500 companies.

1. You cannot run a business that in some peoples eyes POTENTIALLY, could violate federal tax laws and EPA regulations on a blatant way on a media forum so open as the internet and have the respect of all viewer's.

2. You cannot tirelessly self-promote, example, Will a 372 pull a 32" bar with authority? Answer: Only if it's wood ported. Some will see this answer as that just an opinion, others will see it as self promotion, that opinion is up to the viewer.

3. When communicating you must be very clear and concise or others will digress as it fits their perception, PERCEPTION IS REALITY was one of my mentor's favorite quotes. If the statement was "Bailey's wants me t check fit and finish, that's a whole different perception that want's me to test the piston. Not saying Brad's wrong in his mind, just a poor choice of wording.

4. There are industry professional's on the site, they have a different real world perspective of the job that that of a hobbyist, one is bound by rules and penalties, but most of all his long term lively hood depends on doing the job in such a way that it gives 100% customer satisfaction and the max long term performance and longevity. A saw modder doesn't have to worry about those issue's.

5. If a person is going to run a business, whatever that business is, go take a few courses, it will do nothing but help, especially a business law class, liability can be a ##### these days, better set up a LLC or something to protect the family and the house and possessions. I just went through it on the wood business and my son's lawn care business, umbrella liability policy the whole works, worked too hard for what I have to give it up foolishly.

6. There are two or three different schools of viewers on the site, why not set up a Modded Chain Saw forum and those who love their modded saws, timed cuts and legitimately enjoy that kind of action post there.

7. AS continues to be a very educational and informative forum for all viewer's as there are many,many members that contribute to the site.

I believe Bailey's had no intention to see this get to this point, they don't need to self promote, they are too intelligent to conduct serious testing in this manner, I don't think they probably wanted this product review publicized for the fear it could turn into a sh**pot like this. I think they'll be much more reserved in sending product out to people in the future or exercise confidentiality agreements before sending out product (you'll learn this in business class).

I'm sure this will get a ton of backlash, but it's just a observation based on reading both sides of many AS post, not that it's gospel or 100% correct, it's just an honest opinion not meant as criticism.

Only backlash you'll get from me is that your post has given the best advise I have seen so far. Your a 100% dead on. Anybody thinking of starting a business pay heed to this post. Someone rep this man, it won't let me

 

[teacherman]

Perfect post! +1 Indiansprings

Very well said!

Yup.

 

[weimedog]

I'm going to go out on a limb and state what I see after 25 years of doing business at a very high level (now retired) and consulting to Fortune 500 companies.

1. You cannot run a business that in some peoples eyes POTENTIALLY, could violate federal tax laws and EPA regulations on a blatant way on a media forum so open as the internet and have the respect of all viewer's.

2. You cannot tirelessly self-promote, example, Will a 372 pull a 32" bar with authority? Answer: Only if it's wood ported. Some will see this answer as that just an opinion, others will see it as self promotion, that opinion is up to the viewer.

3. When communicating you must be very clear and concise or others will digress as it fits their perception, PERCEPTION IS REALITY was one of my mentor's favorite quotes. If the statement was "Bailey's wants me t check fit and finish, that's a whole different perception that want's me to test the piston. Not saying Brad's wrong in his mind, just a poor choice of wording.

4. There are industry professional's on the site, they have a different real world perspective of the job that that of a hobbyist, one is bound by rules and penalties, but most of all his long term lively hood depends on doing the job in such a way that it gives 100% customer satisfaction and the max long term performance and longevity. A saw modder doesn't have to worry about those issue's.

5. If a person is going to run a business, whatever that business is, go take a few courses, it will do nothing but help, especially a business law class, liability can be a ##### these days, better set up a LLC or something to protect the family and the house and possessions. I just went through it on the wood business and my son's lawn care business, umbrella liability policy the whole works, worked too hard for what I have to give it up foolishly.

6. There are two or three different schools of viewers on the site, why not set up a Modded Chain Saw forum and those who love their modded saws, timed cuts and legitimately enjoy that kind of action post there.

7. AS continues to be a very educational and informative forum for all viewer's as there are many,many members that contribute to the site.

I believe Bailey's had no intention to see this get to this point, they don't need to self promote, they are too intelligent to conduct serious testing in this manner, I don't think they probably wanted this product review publicized for the fear it could turn into a sh**pot like this. I think they'll be much more reserved in sending product out to people in the future or exercise confidentiality agreements before sending out product (you'll learn this in business class).

I'm sure this will get a ton of backlash, but it's just a observation based on reading both sides of many AS post, not that it's gospel or 100% correct, it's just an honest opinion not meant as criticism.

The Fortune 500 thing is the key. Custom saw building is not a mass market affair. The only connection is that companies like Wiseco can leverage the successes of the small race/performance oriented builders to compare head to Head with the main stream and therefore grab an edge. Throwing new products into the performance area is an age old way to get exposure, test, and build a perception. I can think of many performance companies in the Motorcycle world who would build a new pipe or shock and send samples to local racers/riders before going national with the product. There is NO difference here.

I don't understand why the comparison with all the big companies simply because there is no comparison. And in addition the small saw builder is in line with many other performance builder in other motorsports. Nothing here is out of wack with what has happened in other motorsports. The visceral reaction from those who don't have a horse in the race is...strange. Why? It doesn't matter on the large scale. Having a board member talk to other board member about testing a concept is a good thing for those who would be interested..those who are worried about all the other hash...keep worrying and keep your stock saw and go to your dealer! If this isn't an interesting concept...stick to what is! This is a board for enthusiasts..custom saw builders like this one are part enthusiast and part business so this is totally in line. Wiseco's product is going to be good..they always have. This gives options to both dealers and "do-it-yourself" types as well. Bailey happens to be a little more proactive than some..that excellent! I can't see any down side to this concept..only the reaction from those who's pride might be hurt or afraid of the saw market place going motosports and aftermarket for enthusiast..those who want status quo might object..but even then, the scale of this is insignificant..so WHY the angst??

 

[blsnelling]

So again my question to you is WHY can others not challenge Brad and his "Practices." (Trying to be polite.)

I have no problem being challenged. What I have a problem with are those with an attitude and those that are bent on tearing me down. Bring on the constructive criticism. That'll make me a better person. BTW, thanks for your candid post.

 

[spacemule]

Quite the oppsite, I've gave away more to folks on here than I've ever sold, thats a fact. I'm not trying to tear you down at all, your doing a real good job of that yourself. Show you where, ha, go look at your offer, you wrote it. Your taking offence because your loyal following can't dig you out and I'm sure as hell not gonna sit back and let em feed me a big line of BS to cover your hiny, tant gonna happen. I told you last nite you needed a wake up call over that offer. You seemed to agree. I didn't post anymore after that. Now I'm suppose to let your defenders spit out a bunch BS on your behalf, forget it.

Also you got a bad habit. Anytime anyone gives you some grief you always say awwww their just a troll and blah blah blah, never fails. Well to be quite honest you trolling for suckers is what started this thread so give it a rest, its getting old. Wooddog was right, you got a habit of when in trouble holler troll, sorry not working this time.

I agree Tom. In fact, you're the only member here who's offered to give me a saw. That says plenty far as I'm concerned.

 

[weimedog]

I have no problem being challenged. What I have a problem with are those with an attitude and those that are bent on tearing me down. Bring on the constructive criticism. That'll make me a better person. BTW, thanks for your candid post.

You could not get better exposure and...qualified customers as a result. Those who call now will both be qualified and have the right mind set...the best thing that could happen for you is this thread drags on for days and days!

 

[Maldeney]

The Fortune 500 thing is the key. Custom saw building is not a mass market affair. The only connection is that companies like Wiseco can leverage the successes of the small race/performance oriented builders to compare head to Head with the main stream and therefore grab an edge. Throwing new products into the performance area is an age old way to get exposure, test, and build a perception. I can think of many performance companies in the Motorcycle world who would build a new pipe or shock and send samples to local racers/riders before going national with the product. There is NO difference here.
I don't understand why the comparison with all the big companies simply because there is no comparison. And in addition the small saw builder is in line with many other performance builder in other motorsports. Nothing here is out of wack with what has happened in other motorsports. The visceral reaction from those who don't have a horse in the race is...strange. Why? It doesn't matter on the large scale. Having a board member talk to other board member about testing a concept is a good thing for those who would be interested..those who are worried about all the other hash...keep worrying and keep your stock saw and go to your dealer! If this isn't an interesting concept...stick to what is! This is a board for enthusiasts..custom saw builders like this one are part enthusiast and part business so this is totally in line. Wiseco's product is going to be good..they always have. This gives options to both dealers and "do-it-yourself" types as well. Bailey happens to be a little more proactive than some..that excellent! I can't see any down side to this concept..only the reaction from those who's pride might be hurt or afraid of the saw market place going motosports and aftermarket for enthusiast..those who want status quo might object..but even then, the scale of this is insignificant..so WHY the angst??

Read the bold type.... That is why this is different.

 

[Tzed250]

And read this as well:

http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/photos/2008models/2008models-Yamaha-YZ85-2Stroke.htm

In particular under the Features section:

"Lightweight, forged piston means less reciprocal mass and less friction for a faster revving engine with great durability.

"

Actually, now that I think about it; I remember several Japanese motocrossers had forged pistons from time to time...want me to do that research?

I too stand corrected. I would like to know all of the Japanese MX bikes that came OE with forged pistons.

I have yet to see a forged piston lighter than a cast piston.

The highest performance two-stroke Yamaha sold the general public was the TZ250. At over 300hp/liter not much else came close. The last ones sold for $23,000. The cylinder and piston kit are over $1000, 2 are required. The TZ250 uses ART cast pistons.


.

 

[indiansprings]

Brad, theirs nothing personal in the post, just an opinion, based on reading on here off and on for a year. We operated our two son's wood business and lawn care service without an LLC and insurance for the first two years, of all people I should have known better, just always thought I could pay out of pocket for any windows broke etc. Well we have grown to the point where the boys hire outside help, we had an ankle broke while cutting wood a few weeks back, although our farm liability coverage took care of it, what an eye opener.
Parents could have been buttheads, sued, it would have been a mess.
Just hate to see a young family guy with a bright future open himself up, and your the same way about chain saws as I was with gun repair. You in your mind are helping people out, well now I won't touch a gun for anyone else, after a visit by the BATF after a neighbor called and told the FBI I was working on machine guns, the burden of proof shifted to me, all I was doing was building AR's from components. Sooner or later somebody a unhappy customer, a viewer, someone will cause issues, trust me been there.

 

[blsnelling]

Brad, theirs nothing personal in the post, just an opinion, based on reading on here off and on for a year. We operated our two son's wood business and lawn care service without an LLC and insurance for the first two years, of all people I should have known better, just always thought I could pay out of pocket for any windows broke etc. Well we have grown to the point where the boys hire outside help, we had an ankle broke while cutting wood a few weeks back, although our farm liability coverage took care of it, what an eye opener.
Parents could have been buttheads, sued, it would have been a mess.
Just hate to see a young family guy with a bright future open himself up, and your the same way about chain saws as I was with gun repair. You in your mind are helping people out, well now I won't touch a gun for anyone else, after a visit by the BATF after a neighbor called and told the FBI I was working on machine guns, the burden of proof shifted to me, all I was doing was building AR's from components. Sooner or later somebody a unhappy customer, a viewer, someone will cause issues, trust me been there.

Sounds like a good reason to retire at 18K posts, instead of 25K

 

[Metals406]

This thread needs to die a slow, painful death. . . Oh wait, it already has.

 

[Fastcast]

I'm going to go out on a limb and state what I see after 25 years of doing business at a very high level (now retired) and consulting to Fortune 500 companies.

1. You cannot run a business that in some peoples eyes POTENTIALLY, could violate federal tax laws and EPA regulations on a blatant way on a media forum so open as the internet and have the respect of all viewer's.

2. You cannot tirelessly self-promote, example, Will a 372 pull a 32" bar with authority? Answer: Only if it's wood ported. Some will see this answer as that just an opinion, others will see it as self promotion, that opinion is up to the viewer.

3. When communicating you must be very clear and concise or others will digress as it fits their perception, PERCEPTION IS REALITY was one of my mentor's favorite quotes. If the statement was "Bailey's wants me t check fit and finish, that's a whole different perception that want's me to test the piston. Not saying Brad's wrong in his mind, just a poor choice of wording.

4. There are industry professional's on the site, they have a different real world perspective of the job that that of a hobbyist, one is bound by rules and penalties, but most of all his long term lively hood depends on doing the job in such a way that it gives 100% customer satisfaction and the max long term performance and longevity. A saw modder doesn't have to worry about those issue's.

5. If a person is going to run a business, whatever that business is, go take a few courses, it will do nothing but help, especially a business law class, liability can be a ##### these days, better set up a LLC or something to protect the family and the house and possessions. I just went through it on the wood business and my son's lawn care business, umbrella liability policy the whole works, worked too hard for what I have to give it up foolishly.

6. There are two or three different schools of viewers on the site, why not set up a Modded Chain Saw forum and those who love their modded saws, timed cuts and legitimately enjoy that kind of action post there.

7. AS continues to be a very educational and informative forum for all viewer's as there are many,many members that contribute to the site.

I believe Bailey's had no intention to see this get to this point, they don't need to self promote, they are too intelligent to conduct serious testing in this manner, I don't think they probably wanted this product review publicized for the fear it could turn into a sh**pot like this. I think they'll be much more reserved in sending product out to people in the future or exercise confidentiality agreements before sending out product (you'll learn this in business class).

I'm sure this will get a ton of backlash, but it's just a observation based on reading both sides of many AS post, not that it's gospel or 100% correct, it's just an honest opinion not meant as criticism.

Well said Indian and your credentials are glaringly obvious with this post!

Your #6 thought is my feelings exactly. I really wish the mods would develop a mod/hot saw category.

Quite frankly I'm tired of all the mod this, port that every other thread. Give the modders and cookie cutters their own place to play and keep the Chainsaw category to stock saws, bars, chains, tools, oils, fuel, filters, up and coming products etc.....You know the boring stuff.....When people are looking for a little more excitement they can visit the Mod/Hot saw category. I truly believe it would cut down on the bickering......This is a great idea Indian!....IMO

 

[Justsaws]

I have no problem being challenged. What I have a problem with are those with an attitude and those that are bent on tearing me down. Bring on the constructive criticism. That'll make me a better person. BTW, thanks for your candid post.

blsnelling some additional information/questions per the offer.

Does the OEM piston get returned with the saw?

Do you provide a warranty on your labor?

Do you provide the Wiseco replacement warranty parts and labor?

Does the saw owner have any recourse provided by you for recovering value from damage beyond that of the piston should a failure occur?

These are questions that if I presented your offer to commercial users they would ask me.

I can think of quite a few members here that run the specified saws commercially and would take advantage of an offer like this.

I would think that you are getting some useful PMs by now.

 

[stipes]

Reading on...

Whats the big deal about this people.. If it all boils down to what Brad is wanting to charge for labor,,,so what,,like he's gonna get rich off of this,,I think not.....All Brad and some people that read the post at first thought hey,,,something new to try out...Lets have some fun at seeing whats new out there ,,what works and what dont work...This is the biggist BS bent outta thing I ever read on AS...Where have all the fun gone too where people wanna do something diffrent and where does it end??? I guess it's gonna get to where all you can write about is what oil mix I used and first time someone blows their sh*t up and then blames someone else for their actions...
Grow up people,,if your not interested go read another thead...I'm ashamed today....Whats happened to all of us to enjoy saws either earning a living at or a hobby......

 

[Saw Dr.]

I agree Tom. In fact, you're the only member here who's offered to give me a saw. That says plenty far as I'm concerned.

I got a couple mini-mac's for ya, space.

 

[weimedog]

Read the bold type.... That is why this is different.

And?? The difference is? I can think of many builders testing suspension setups ups or motorsetups with other companies products as well. Are you implying that since BLsnelling doesn't build the pistons, he doesn't have the right to do the testing of something He may settle on within his customer base? I completely dissagree. Think of all the motorbuilders out there who use aftermarket parts in their builds...and the piston in these saws can be a major component therefore relevent.

The implication here is when he builds saws that can use the wiseco piston he will if they show the ability to stand up to his value add....same as some like shop building a suspension setup using another companies springs or seals.

I think the issue here is the clash between aftermarket and OEM and performance aftermarket builders vs current mainstream saw support. There is no "specification" on how a builder gets exposure and attracts interest. This is a legitimate way and has obviously done just that...now I want to know how those saws (if there are any yet) perform after being fitted with Wiseco pistons!

i'm not trying to defend anyone in particular, but having been in the motorcycle business, I see this saw world going thru fits and jerks as it tries to morph into something other than simply a tool supplier towards encompassing a more enthusiast flavor for a segment of the market.

Part of what has killed American inovation is all the paper barriers between those with an inovative spirit and the customer base.

 

[blsnelling]

blsnelling some additional information/questions per the offer.

Does the OEM piston get returned with the saw?

Absolutely. I'm not trying to "swindle" anyone out of their OEM pistons.

Do you provide a warranty on your labor?

I always stand behind my work.

Do you provide the Wiseco replacement warranty parts and labor?

I think you're forgetting whose pistons these are. They're not mine.

Does the saw owner have any recourse provided by you for recovering value from damage beyond that of the piston should a failure occur?

Again, I think you're forgetting that these aren't my pistons. I'll stand behind my work anyday. But I don't have the resources, nor the responsibility to stand behind a bad product. The pistons are free. You're only paying for my labor. You know the risks up front. If you're another enthusiast and want to see how these pistons do, then have at it. Otherwise, this deal isn't for you.

 

[Stihl088stock]

Brad, theirs nothing personal in the post, just an opinion, based on reading on here off and on for a year. We operated our two son's wood business and lawn care service without an LLC and insurance for the first two years, of all people I should have known better, just always thought I could pay out of pocket for any windows broke etc. Well we have grown to the point where the boys hire outside help, we had an ankle broke while cutting wood a few weeks back, although our farm liability coverage took care of it, what an eye opener.
Parents could have been buttheads, sued, it would have been a mess.
Just hate to see a young family guy with a bright future open himself up, and your the same way about chain saws as I was with gun repair. You in your mind are helping people out, well now I won't touch a gun for anyone else, after a visit by the BATF after a neighbor called and told the FBI I was working on machine guns, the burden of proof shifted to me, all I was doing was building AR's from components. Sooner or later somebody a unhappy customer, a viewer, someone will cause issues, trust me been there.

Welcome to the new America, Guilty until proven innocent... what a shame.

 

[weimedog]

Absolutely. I'm not trying to "swindle" anyone out of their OEM pistons.


I always stand behind my work.


I think you're forgetting whose pistons these are. They're not mine.


Again, I think you're forgetting that these aren't my pistons. I'll stand behind my work anyday. But I don't have the resources, nor the responsibility to stand behind a bad product. You know the risks up front. If you're another enthusiast and want to see how these pistons do, then have at it.

I don't think any one here reading this post makes any of the connections the post your answering does....all that is a moot point. AND your customers are your best advertisement..if they like your work, they will be silent..if they don't they will chime in and trash you. I haven't seen the trash therefor your work & perception of your ethics must be brilliant. So chill.

(Take a close look at those who would object and put yourself in their mindset for a second)