MS 046 Repair with Public Input

Arborist Forum

Help Support Arborist Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Philbert

Chainsaw Enthusiast
. AS Supporting Member.
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
19,729
Reaction score
37,766
Location
Minnesota
(EDIT: I am trying to replace some of the lost photographs in this thread - some may not be exactly the same as the originals, or in the same sequence. There are also some minor edits).

Background

Some of you know that I volunteer with groups that help clean up storm damage. This work is hard on the saws, due to all of the debris mixed in, and because lots of different people use the same saws.

We also train new volunteers, who get to learn, and sometimes make mistakes on our saws, in exchange for their time and effort cleaning up tree debris. I try to help keep those saws running, in addition to my own, and have learned a lot from reading A.S. posts.

This saw was recently presented to me from the ‘disabled’ list. I thought it might be fun to do a thread on its diagnosis and repair to solicit some input and advice from more experienced members, and to encourage some less experienced members to learn how to work on their saws or projects.

My Goals

1) Figure out what led to this repair, without assigning blame.
2) Return this saw to service with a stock level of performance (no mods or porting, other than minor clean up on any replacement parts).

Vital Signs

model: STIHL MS 046
purchased new: August, 2001
spark: Yes!
compression: 117 psi
crank: rotates normally when starter rope is pulled - strong resistance still felt at parts of the cycle, even with the low compression noted.

Photos Attached

- The very clean spark plug must have been installed by someone trying to get the saw to run. I don’t have the old one to look at the tip color.
- The top of the piston looks very clean - no noticeable carbon buildup there or in the muffler.
- The intake side of the cylinder looks very smooth and clean, as viewed from the exhaust port.

What do ‘we’ do next?

Philbert

P4082923.jpg
P4082932.jpg
 
Thoughts for Guys New to Working on Saws

A few parts of the saw were already removed before I received it. I have been cleaning each part as I remove it, to inspect for damage, and making a list of parts that are missing or that need to be replaced.

I have worked on a few saws, but when one’s workbench is cluttered, when working or multiple projects, or when the project may get interrupted or delayed for some time, I find it easy to misplace or forget things.

So I am also tracking the order that I remove parts on a pad of paper, to be sure that I can get things back together without having to redo any assembly steps.

Small parts/screws are going into labeled plastic bags (e.g. ‘muffler screws’, ‘front cover screws’, etc.) with the parts they go with so that they don’t get lost, and to go back in the same place where they came from.

Please ask questions. A.S. Members probably have dozens of different ways of doing similar things. I am always open to new ideas.

Philbert
 
Great idea which makes this a great thread!

It looks like the bolts that hold the jug on have been removed. Was this done before you got the saw? Was a vac/psi test done on the saw?

Is it just the picture or is there a lot of carbon build up on the exhaust port? Lots of hours? Dyno oil?

Do you guys have someone who checks the tuning of the saws before they're used?
 
that saws in good shape for being that old ,pistons obviously bad ,diagnosing why its bad will make a great thread ,im guessing crank seals dried up due to age sucking air ,the vacuum test will tell you that if its the problem,was it hard to start before piston failed ?
 
Piston and rings replacement, yes... But the saw should have at least run at 117 lbs... Maybe not idle well, but run at least. But it didn't... Right?:msp_confused: Brad is right... Go through the whole fuel system...
 
Start with a vac test before pulling the cylinder. Address any leaks. Go through the entire fuel system.

It looks like the bolts that hold the jug on have been removed. . . Is it just the picture or is there a lot of carbon build up on the exhaust port? . . .Dyno oil?

But the saw should have at least run at 117 lbs... Maybe not idle well, but run at least. But it didn't... Right?

A sincere thanks to all of you for all of your input!

Brad (and others): Good call on the pressure and vacuum test. I was just assuming that I would replace gaskets and seals as a maintenance issue, but then I would not know what caused the problem. It's little things like that that are helpful. Can't do the tests after removing the cylinder. Plus, it gives me a chance to try another tool!

I did remember to remove the clutch assembly before removing the cylinder - don't know how to do that without a piston stop.

Manyhobies: The cylinder is still secured - could be hard to see from the photo. The muffler and a few other things had been pulled. I think that they stopped when they saw the scored piston. Most of the black stuff is just greasy dirt. I will cover the open ports (exhaust, spark plug, carb) and blast the thing with compressed air before doing more any work on it. It should have been running STIHL HP (the orange bottle) at 50:1.

Hedgerow: I don't have much information on the 'before' part. I think that they are afraid that I will yell at them if they tell me too much. Some things, like the time that the tree fell on the saw, I can figure out. Other times . . .

I also got a PM suggesting that I go to the 'Beg for Manuals' thread < http://www.arboristsite.com/stickies/68615.htm > and get a service manual and IPL. Anyone got an IPL for an MS 046?

Thanks again.

Philbert
 
Tell em' it's all good... Honesty is the best policy when it comes to sleuthing repairs... Remember, it's about disaster relief, not tool love... Not only that, but it can save a lot of "fart chasing", for the poor guy that has to fix the saw with a minimal budget... My BIL usually starts our conversations with " I did something real bad"... :hmm3grin2orange:
And it's ok...
 
Pressure Tested

I appreciate the patience of anyone following this tread - it is a project that I am working on as I can, so it may take a bit of time.

I removed a bunch of parts from the saw to clean and inspect them, as well as to provide access, and to be able to check seals and gaskets for leaks.

P4172936.jpg

Thank you again to the A.S. members who sent me a Service Manual (SM) or Illustrated Parts List (IPL) for the saw. The IPL helps to show how parts go back together. It also lets me label things with cool, STIHL, engineering terms (like, ‘air baffle’) instead of my own, dorky terms (like, ‘black, plastic thingy’). Although, ‘baffle’ seems to be the term that STIHL uses when they don’t know what else to call a bracket, or a stiffener, or a mounting ring, etc.

I performed pressure and vacuum tests per these A.S. threads.

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/42768.htm

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/112928.htm

P4172937.jpg

P4172941.jpg

The saw held steady at 10 PSI of pressure for several minutes, and through multiple revolutions of the crank. It held 10 inHg of vacuum through several rotations of the crank, and was still holding it 3 hours later when I got back from an appointment. Seems like the seals are OK?

Anything else I need to do before pulling the cylinder? Any special tricks for keeping crud from falling into the crankcase?

Thanks on-going.

Philbert
 
And so is the carb boot. If you used the impulse line to pressurize/vacuum the thing, (I see you did) proves that's good too. Lastly, change out the fuel line and filter. That should give you a new saw with the piston and cylinder fix. Now the cause was......?? Maybe fuel line, you can test it with pressure or bad gas. Carb may have been tuned lean also.

Good job, that saw looks pretty clean in those last pictures. You can rinse the case out with mix if needed to remove anything that falls in.
 
Last edited:
Rotating Crank While Pressure Testing

The pressure/vacuum threads, above, say to rotate the crank when testing to see if there might be leaks only at certain positions.

I had removed the clutch and flywheel to be able to see the crank seals, but, then had to re-mount the flywheel & key to turn the crank. It occurred to me later that I could have just installed the flywheel retaining nut and rotated the crank backwards with a wrench. I was wondering what others do?

Thanks.

Philbert
 
Piston

Pulled the cylinder, cleaned things up as best I could, and posted photos, below.

The damage to the piston on the exhaust side is pretty clear. It is slightly more towards the right (clutch) side of the piston, rather than centered at the exhaust. This is consistent with some ‘Piston Failure Diagnosis’ photos found elsewhere on the Internet. The rings are essentially ‘welded’ into the grooves at this location.

P4182944.jpg

I looked for ‘scouring’ on the underside of the piston, where it meets the connecting rod: this was indicated as a way of distinguishing straight-gassing from lean-seizure, aside from the leak test. There appears to be some scouring on the lower faces of the holes, but I don’t have enough experience with used pistons to tell what is normal.

P4182948.jpg

- The piston will obviously get replaced; is there anything else that we can ‘read’ / learn from it?

- Anyone know why the damage tends to be on the clutch side of the piston?

- There was a light carbon coating that easily came off of the top with a Scotchbrite pad, but 4 spots where it was deepest, around the perimeter (about 11 o'clock, 1 o'clock, 4 o'clock, and 7 o'clock on the photo). Two of these appear to line up over the ring gaps: normal?

P4182954.jpg

- When do you replace the wrist pin bearing?

Thanks.

Philbert
 
Cylinder

The inside of the cylinder is mostly smooth. I can just catch my fingernail on one line near the base of the cylinder, and on several above and below the exhaust port. The edges of the exhaust port are also rough.

P4182950.jpg

P4182952.jpg



Save the cylinder or replace? What criteria do you use? The additional cost for a new Meteor cylinder from Bailey’s is $100.

Anything else we can learn from the cylinder? Anything else to inspect?

Anyone have a link to a good, step-by-step “How to Clean a Cylinder with Muriatic Acid” thread?

Should I smooth out the rough edges of the ports with emery paper if I re-use the cylinder? I’m not looking to boost flow as much as to avoid catching new rings.

Thanks again.

Philbert
 
Anyone have a link to a good, step-by-step “How to Clean a Cylinder with Muriatic Acid” thread?

Should I smooth out the rough edges of the ports with emery paper if I re-use the cylinder? I’m not looking to boost flow as much as to avoid catching new rings.

Philbert

Here's a link to a cylinder cleanup with muriatic acid done by roncoinc: http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/130474.htm
 
Here's a link to a cylinder cleanup with muriatic acid done by roncoinc:

Thank you!

OK, here are 2, larger, A.S. “How to Clean a Cylinder with Muriatic Acid” threads:

1. http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/182703.htm

2. http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/130474.htm

There are dozens more if you Search for 'muriatic acid'. Note that there are some differences of opinion with regards to sandpaper, etc. Heating the cylinder seems to be an interesting idea.

When should you replace the cylinder? How about the one in the photo above?

Philbert

EDIT / UPDATE: Links to cylinder clean up threads that do not use acid:

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/removing-aluminum-transfer-without-using-acid.248034/

http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...um-transfer-without-acid.248325/#post-4595785
 
You replace a cylinder when it is deeply scored, has the nicasil plating worn through or if the exhaust port gets damaged at the top by catching a ring or any catastrophic damage like a cylinder having a piece break out of it, eg. the bridge between the transfers. The only way to decide about the cylinder in the pict is to try to clean it up and see how deep the scoring actually is, if its all the way through the plating then its toast.
 
Last edited:

Latest posts

Back
Top