Bobcat or ASV for High-Flow Mulching Head?

[catbuster]

All-everything mentioned regarding ASV Tracks, undercarriage, expensive maintenance costs, as well as the exeptional hi-flow power seem common and agreed across the board.

Any one out there have experience running the heads with the Takeuchi TL250 track skid? (Or the Mustang CTL/Gehl CTL-basically the same with different paint). I know the TL150 is an excellent grading machine with brute power, strength, and durability but not sure about the TL250's ability (with hi-flow) to run the mulching heads.

I know there's one guy on LawnSite that bought a new Tak 250 to replace his RC100. I think you re on LS (?)I'm not sure.

Schaffer, There's no way your loader will go where a CTL will go. However, there are a bucnh of guys that would run it around here, where a loader could do the work. I have to admit tho, Bob ray pretty musch has a buch of mulching tied up here. He has a a 963C set up for mulching, and a couple of Bobcat CTLs. that shows you how opular tracked machines are for muclching. They are simply tougher, and more reliable

 

[QwikDraw]

I replaced my ASV with a Takeuchi TL250 for mulching. It is ten times the machine in rough terrain and mud. The front idelers are big which allows it to climb over rocks/logs that would stop other CTLs. The ASV cut better due to the higher PSI. I may try cranking the pumps up a few hundred psi and see what happens. Takeuchi does have a extra cooling package which includes a hydraulic cooler and reversing fan. I had a lexan door installed at the factory and larger sized hydraulic couplers (like the ASV).

I have heard that the new Bobcat will NOT be over 100 hp...someting about emissions and a motor compartment that is too small for the extra equipment to make it compliant....don't know if that's true but it sounded right when I heard it?????

Whatever you decide on it will break. I am looking at a dedicated unit for higher productivity and durability.

I also own daewoo 175 excavator with a Denis Cimaf and that setup has been bullet proof. Never any heating issues, tough steel tracks and much lower cost to run then a skid steer. It can mulch 12-14 inch hardwood and navigate terrain the CTL can't, trim branches to 25 feet and mow around rock walls, steep banks and pond edges. It is slightly slower in wide open small diameter material but over all it makes more money for me then my skid steer.

Good luck.

 

[komatsuvarna]

I replaced my ASV with a Takeuchi TL250 for mulching. It is ten times the machine in rough terrain and mud. The front idelers are big which allows it to climb over rocks/logs that would stop other CTLs. The ASV cut better due to the higher PSI. I may try cranking the pumps up a few hundred psi and see what happens. Takeuchi does have a extra cooling package which includes a hydraulic cooler and reversing fan. I had a lexan door installed at the factory and larger sized hydraulic couplers (like the ASV).

I have heard that the new Bobcat will NOT be over 100 hp...someting about emissions and a motor compartment that is too small for the extra equipment to make it compliant....don't know if that's true but it sounded right when I heard it?????

Whatever you decide on it will break. I am looking at a dedicated unit for higher productivity and durability.

I also own daewoo 175 excavator with a Denis Cimaf and that setup has been bullet proof. Never any heating issues, tough steel tracks and much lower cost to run then a skid steer. It can mulch 12-14 inch hardwood and navigate terrain the CTL can't, trim branches to 25 feet and mow around rock walls, steep banks and pond edges. It is slightly slower in wide open small diameter material but over all it makes more money for me then my skid steer.

Good luck.

Hey, I checked out the pictures on your site. Nice work. That Denis Cimaf sure looks like it does a job. If I ever invested in a mulching head, It would be one like that for my pc-228.

 

[SchafferLoaders]

Mulching heads on Schaffer Wheel Loader

I know there's one guy on LawnSite that bought a new Tak 250 to replace his RC100. I think you re on LS (?)I'm not sure.

Schaffer, There's no way your loader will go where a CTL will go. However, there are a bucnh of guys that would run it around here, where a loader could do the work. I have to admit tho, Bob ray pretty musch has a buch of mulching tied up here. He has a a 963C set up for mulching, and a couple of Bobcat CTLs. that shows you how opular tracked machines are for muclching. They are simply tougher, and more reliable

Thanks for your comments Catbuster, I'm not inferring a wheeled loader will go the same places as a tracked machine, I'm just suggesting this as an option and appreciate your feedback.

I just want to put it out there as the maintenance costs of wheeled machines in general are far less than a tracked machine, supposedly operating a bulldozer up to 80% of your running costs are undercarriage and track maintenance, I would guess to a lesser extent a tracked skid steer would incur the same costs.

As far as I know a wheeled loader, built from scratch for mulching with 130hp high flow in a 6 tonne package (there are some with this hp, but you are looking at a 10 tonne machine) is not available in any other brand on the market worldwide (somehow I think everyone is going to jump on Google and prove me wrong here!).

I guess I've always seen the Schaffer 130hp high flow as an alternative also as non-dedicated skid steers are generally limited at around 100hp and Schaffer are offering 130hp in their unit. I think everyone agrees that there's no substitute for hp when it comes to running high flow tools! Feedback in Australia with skid steers in mulching is that they run far too hot as the cooling isn't adequate (but its pretty hot here anyway!).

Schaffer wish to put out the high flow unit as an all purpose machine but built for high flow applications. It would be considered a mulching option for less steep terrain and would cost significantly less to operate and maintain than a tracked loader. Also with 35km/hr road speed you could drive to the job or just around larger job sites quickly.
You can still use it as a bucket loader, pallet fork work with up to 3 tonnes capacity, log grapple, greenwaste grab, auger etc...something that is all purpose as well, the same a skid steer.

It would be great to get any more feedback!

cheers guys.

 

[Samson09]

I replaced my ASV with a Takeuchi TL250 for mulching. It is ten times the machine in rough terrain and mud. The front idelers are big which allows it to climb over rocks/logs that would stop other CTLs. The ASV cut better due to the higher PSI. I may try cranking the pumps up a few hundred psi and see what happens. Takeuchi does have a extra cooling package which includes a hydraulic cooler and reversing fan. I had a lexan door installed at the factory and larger sized hydraulic couplers (like the ASV).

Thanks for the feedback- your definitely the guy I need to hear from- I have actually adjusted my final 2 choices to the Terex (ASV) PT-100 Forestry Model and the Takeuchi TL250 based on our application and needs- Since you have both, your the expert.- I addition to the mulching we grade and excavate a lot of dirt dirt which I beleive the Tak will do most excellently...the PT-100 seems excellent but all the negative feedback regarding the undercarriage/track maintenance costs got me nervous towards that machine.

 

[SchafferLoaders]

Nice pics Quickdraw! :rockn:

 

[SchafferLoaders]

I replaced my ASV with a Takeuchi TL250 for mulching. It is ten times the machine in rough terrain and mud. The front idelers are big which allows it to climb over rocks/logs that would stop other CTLs. The ASV cut better due to the higher PSI. I may try cranking the pumps up a few hundred psi and see what happens. Takeuchi does have a extra cooling package which includes a hydraulic cooler and reversing fan. I had a lexan door installed at the factory and larger sized hydraulic couplers (like the ASV).

Thanks for the feedback- your definitely the guy I need to hear from- I have actually adjusted my final 2 choices to the Terex (ASV) PT-100 Forestry Model and the Takeuchi TL250 based on our application and needs- Since you have both, your the expert.- I addition to the mulching we grade and excavate a lot of dirt dirt which I beleive the Tak will do most excellently...the PT-100 seems excellent but all the negative feedback regarding the undercarriage/track maintenance costs got me nervous towards that machine.

Hi Samson,

In Australia some customers have told me what you are working out here. If you want a nice ride - then posi is the only choice, but for toughness then the taki is the way to go?
I guess they both have their good sides, personally an articulated wheel loader is my choiceumpkin2:

 

[QwikDraw]

For me the ride isn't that different and I think the Takie with the stiffer tracks rides better over small rock/slash. I spent over 20k on the ASV in a little over 2 years on breakdowns not including many half days lost. I did blow the engine due to a poor mount design that was warrantied after I put the story out on another forum ($10,000) It dam near took all my profit to keep it running. ASV does have someting new coming out and after talking to the sales rep it does seem thay are putting in a big effort to improve. I don't know if I'd buy another but if it's a great machine I might.

I really like the idea of the Schaffer 130 hp loader, maybe if it were wider/lower for stabilitly it would be perfect. Add some chains to the tires and off you go. I looked hard customizing a Takeuchi loader (Atlas loader) to use mowing ROW where the material is smallish (2-3 inch) for most. One of the biggest problems would be skid plates and side protection...some sort of cage. When you are mowing the edges of the ROW you are always busting through branches from the mature edge trees. Put a dual spindle rotary in the 8 foot wide range and it's a winning combo for what I do. Alot of my ROW is in busy areas and I don't what to buy a Hydro Ax...just to big for transport and getting in some areas.

One bit of concern is the mulching enviornment is ROUGH as is any forestry work...the Schaffer needs to be overbilt to survive in this line of work an average loader in the woods would die a quick death.

I'd like to test one of those Schaffer loader...why don't you send one over

 

[redprospector]

Plus I wouldn't want a machine with plastic undercarriage parts.

Actually the plastic wheels on the ASV undercarrage hold up pretty well. It's the rubber tires on them that seem to come apart easily. I replaced the front & rear idlers, and some of the bogie wheels on mine not long ago and not one of the plastic wheels were damaged. The rubber was pretty eat up on all that I replaced though.
I know how you feel though. I felt the same way when they started using plastic on chainsaw's.
The fact that the plastic wheels aren't the weak link dosen't change the fact that they want way too :censored: much for their parts, and that I will be replacing the ASV with another brand, when the time comes.

Andy

 

[komatsuvarna]

Actually the plastic wheels on the ASV undercarrage hold up pretty well. It's the rubber tires on them that seem to come apart easily. I replaced the front & rear idlers, and some of the bogie wheels on mine not long ago and not one of the plastic wheels were damaged. The rubber was pretty eat up on all that I replaced though.
I know how you feel though. I felt the same way when they started using plastic on chainsaw's.
The fact that the plastic wheels aren't the weak link dosen't change the fact that they want way too :censored: much for their parts, and that I will be replacing the ASV with another brand, when the time comes.

Andy

I guess its more of the thought of the plastic parts being on the undercarriage. I dont know if its true or not, but I was told that the undercarriage system was copied from some kind of snow blower/plow/ pusher, or something that had to do with removing snow. That may be why the parts is so high, I dont really know though.

 

[QwikDraw]

The original design was Polaris....as in the snowmobile company. I still see a few around here, they are the same as the ASV RC30. ASV purchased the design and made the bigger units.

I think that's right.

 

[komatsuvarna]

QuikDraw, I seen that your daewoo has 3 lines plumbed to the mulcher, Were as my komatsu's has only 2. Is one of them a greaser or some sort, Or does it take 3 to run the mulcher?

 

[QwikDraw]

You need a pressure line, a return line and a case drain. The case drain just goes straight back to the tank.

 

[SchafferLoaders]

Mulching heads on Schaffer Wheel Loader

For me the ride isn't that different and I think the Takie with the stiffer tracks rides better over small rock/slash. I spent over 20k on the ASV in a little over 2 years on breakdowns not including many half days lost. I did blow the engine due to a poor mount design that was warrantied after I put the story out on another forum ($10,000) It dam near took all my profit to keep it running. ASV does have someting new coming out and after talking to the sales rep it does seem thay are putting in a big effort to improve. I don't know if I'd buy another but if it's a great machine I might.

I really like the idea of the Schaffer 130 hp loader, maybe if it were wider/lower for stabilitly it would be perfect. Add some chains to the tires and off you go. I looked hard customizing a Takeuchi loader (Atlas loader) to use mowing ROW where the material is smallish (2-3 inch) for most. One of the biggest problems would be skid plates and side protection...some sort of cage. When you are mowing the edges of the ROW you are always busting through branches from the mature edge trees. Put a dual spindle rotary in the 8 foot wide range and it's a winning combo for what I do. Alot of my ROW is in busy areas and I don't what to buy a Hydro Ax...just to big for transport and getting in some areas.

One bit of concern is the mulching enviornment is ROUGH as is any forestry work...the Schaffer needs to be overbilt to survive in this line of work an average loader in the woods would die a quick death.

I'd like to test one of those Schaffer loader...why don't you send one over

Hi Quickdraw,

Thanks for your comments, I wish I could send one over. It does remind me of some customers who ask to trial a Schaffer for 6 months. opcorn:
The Schaffer 9330Z is around 2080mm wide, with 550x45-22.5 tyres.

This picture I hope shows the front end of the Schaffer - Germany really overbuild everything, part of the reason they cost a bit more than other wheel loaders.
View attachment 137743
Schaffer tell me their loaders aren't overbuilt, just "built to spec" but if you put one up against any Japanese machine you will see a huge difference. Japanese machines in general have a lot lighter componetry as they are built for the local market which is seasonal snow removal. Generally masts are made of 15mm plate and not crossed braced as much. I just came back from Japan and every petrol or "gas" station in the mountains has a small wheel loader to do a quick tidy up in the streets after snowing.

The Schaffer 9330Z mast is all made of 30mm plate, pins are a minimum of 50mm, with 5mm bushes and oscillating bearings to take out any twist. The mast is also crossed braced with massive pipe sections in a few areas giving even greater strength.
In Australia we've put machines in areas that are very harsh on machines.

An example of this is this pdf with a much smaller 3150 wheel loader going into a smelter. They orginally owned another wheel loader brand and twisted the mast after a month, so decided to fabricate their own mast in 20mm plate - thicker than their previous mast. This made the mast a lot stronger but transferred the stress back onto the samson posts which then started to crack, just showing if the machine isn't built heavy duty from scratch if you reinforce one point it transfers to another point.
When it came to building their Schaffer Loader the customer asked for our "heavy duty option". I explained that our standard mast was made of 30mm plate and so are the samson posts so its survived in that environment well.

I definitely agree mulching is a very hard environment as well.


These pictures show how much weight is out past the rear axle and down low, I think if any loader is stable, a Schaffer loader is! Many loaders are built on a different principle and are much higher as the operator is sitting high up above the engine, the Schaffer Wheel Loaders generally have the engine out the back added to the counterweight.

One picture is of the former model, the 9100Z.

View attachment 137741

View attachment 137742

Did I put this link up to a Schaffer telehandler doing some forestry work?

This clip, although just 16 seconds long, is my favourite video showing an all purpose machine.
Cheers,

Cameron Moir

 

[Samson09]

I replaced my ASV with a Takeuchi TL250 for mulching. It is ten times the machine in rough terrain and mud. The front idelers are big which allows it to climb over rocks/logs that would stop other CTLs. The ASV cut better due to the higher PSI. I may try cranking the pumps up a few hundred psi and see what happens. Takeuchi does have a extra cooling package which includes a hydraulic cooler and reversing fan. I had a lexan door installed at the factory and larger sized hydraulic couplers (like the ASV).

quik- is your TL250 running hot without the extra optional ambient colling package? I was quoted an additional $9200 to add that package.

 

[QwikDraw]

It hasn't yet but our hottest day has been only 75-80.

The only negative thing I can say is the Takeuchi has less power to the head then the ASV. I am going to turn up the pumps a bit, I think 3400 psi is as high as you can go safely, at least that's what I have been told.

 

[komatsuvarna]

I dont know much about them, but kubota is making a ctl. 75 and 90 hp version. Just seen it yesterday in a magazine. I dont think a cab version will be out until 2011 though.

 

[catbuster]

I just want to put it out there as the maintenance costs of wheeled machines in general are far less than a tracked machine, supposedly operating a bulldozer up to 80% of your running costs are undercarriage and track maintenance, I would guess to a lesser extent a tracked skid steer would incur the same costs.

As far as I know a wheeled loader, built from scratch for mulching with 130hp high flow in a 6 tonne package (there are some with this hp, but you are looking at a 10 tonne machine) is not available in any other brand on the market worldwide (somehow I think everyone is going to jump on Google and prove me wrong here!).

I guess I've always seen the Schaffer 130hp high flow as an alternative also as non-dedicated skid steers are generally limited at around 100hp and Schaffer are offering 130hp in their unit. I think everyone agrees that there's no substitute for hp when it comes to running high flow tools! Feedback in Australia with skid steers in mulching is that they run far too hot as the cooling isn't adequate (but its pretty hot here anyway!).

Schaffer wish to put out the high flow unit as an all purpose machine but built for high flow applications. It would be considered a mulching option for less steep terrain and would cost significantly less to operate and maintain than a tracked loader. Also with 35km/hr road speed you could drive to the job or just around larger job sites quickly.
You can still use it as a bucket loader, pallet fork work with up to 3 tonnes capacity, log grapple, greenwaste grab, auger etc...something that is all purpose as well, the same a skid steer.

It would be great to get any more feedback!

cheers guys.

First, it's about 60 percent. It also depends on the type of machine. Track loaders, though i hate to admit it, are pretty close to excavators when it comes to maintence. Worse than a dozer.

Second, it would work extremely well for tree contactors, not loggers, but tree contractors. You could chunk larger logs out in 1 piece, and grind a stump with the same machine

An all purpose artic unit will never happen. The clossest to an all pupropse machine IS a track loader. Wheeled machines will not be as good for digging, pushing, mulching etc.

As far as ground speed, I'm all for it. But if your doing 20 or so and hit a runt, youre gonna bounce hard. I've cleared enough to know that newly cleared land isn't flat.

 

[SchafferLoaders]

Mulching heads on Schaffer Wheel Loader

First, it's about 60 percent. It also depends on the type of machine. Track loaders, though i hate to admit it, are pretty close to excavators when it comes to maintence. Worse than a dozer.

Second, it would work extremely well for tree contactors, not loggers, but tree contractors. You could chunk larger logs out in 1 piece, and grind a stump with the same machine

An all purpose artic unit will never happen. The clossest to an all pupropse machine IS a track loader. Wheeled machines will not be as good for digging, pushing, mulching etc.

As far as ground speed, I'm all for it. But if your doing 20 or so and hit a runt, youre gonna bounce hard. I've cleared enough to know that newly cleared land isn't flat.

Thanks again Catbuster for the advice.
As an "all purpose machine" I didn't mean replacing a tracked machine (for steep slopes or harsh digging), more as a yard machine, loading, pick and carry for up to 3 tonne, using a grapple for logs, augering, 2.0 cu mulch bucket etc...
Sounds like a good idea with the stump grinder on it.
I agree with you in regards to speed! You can only use the fully 35km/hr or even 15 km/hr if you are on something very flat and that's usually just bitumen!

Samson - that extra cooling package quoted at $9200 is some serious money for an upgrade!

cheers,

Cam

 

[komatsuvarna]

First, it's about 60 percent. It also depends on the type of machine. Track loaders, though i hate to admit it, are pretty close to excavators when it comes to maintence. Worse than a dozer.

How do you figure that track maintence on excavators is worse than a dozer? A dozer is constantly using its tracks. A excavator travels alot less and with little to no load on them,other than the machine weight. Ive had excavators with 5000 hours on them(have one right now) and ive never had to do anything with track maintence on them. I also have a D-39 dozer with 2500 hours on it that just got new sprockets and pins.