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Crappy Stihl Cylinder - Looks like ChiCom Garbage!!!

Discussion in 'Chainsaw' started by blsnelling, May 7, 2009.

  1. Sawdustmaker

    Sawdustmaker Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Help please, i am lost. i am looking for a place to post pics of a new cylinder that i have that may be of interest to some of y'all...
     
  2. Sawdustmaker

    Sawdustmaker Addicted to ArboristSite

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    I did not pull this of a saw because of perinoia.

    I just got this in the mail. note the chamfering.

    can you guess what it is?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Erick

    Erick Addicted to ArboristSite

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    bbb ;)
     
  4. Adirondack

    Adirondack ArboristSite Operative

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    Man, You made my day. That was very funny. :bowdown::eek:uttahere:
     
  5. weimedog

    weimedog Addicted to ArboristSite

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    To those who attempt to compare Brake Master Cylinder castings to high performance two stroke cylinder castings miss the main point here. That comparison is just BS. The application is radically different & therefor so are the finish part requirements. Automotive parts have more space and can get away with more weight as the platform they ride around in is much larger. Also the customer isn't as likely to feel or even see the difference in a heavier casting with more material to add a "saftey" cushion in the performance parameters of that part. SO the casting designs and resultant manufacturing processes typically ballance the application with more size and weight to offset the potential variations in manufacturing. It works. Cars are reliable. Same with so many other automotive related parts EVEN though weight and fuel efficiency is becoming a larger priority, still nothing close to saws....a MUCH closer analogy to these Stihls would be racing motorcycles. That type of part could kill a season of sales if it turned up in something like a KTM or Honda motocross bike during a magazine test. Things like that HAVE for the same reasons. If this is a new norm, it could impact sales for Stihl with the performance oriented customer. (Pro's and performance addicts alike). Cut & Dried. No argument guys..thats the way it is. Does Stihl care? Thats another matter and another entire discussion. I have no idea.

    SO...Performance two strokes are a completely different apllication than automotive apps with a completely different set of tolerances. Market driven weight, fit and finish, and performance standards are higher as performance relative to both weight and space are more of an issue with saws. In addition, the performance of a two stroke is effected by the location and accuracy of ports in those cylinders. And my friends..THATS the issue here. How many times do we read posts about how much a particular saw weighs and how fast they cut relative to other brands? You can't even count the postings..

    With those castings posted in the begining of this eternally long thread, the ports & finish was terrible AS COMPARED to what is expected relative to OTHER high performance two stroke engine's be it saws or motorcycles. If this was a lower cost saw, no one would care. The expectation level for Poulan's and both the performance and consistency of performance from one saw to the next isn't that great...but a priemium priced saw is a different matter.

    With a Pro level saw, the performance, reliability under stress, and power to weight ratio's ARE why the extra bucks are spent. A performance level from one saw to the next IS expected to be about the same, so when a pro or builder see's that type of quality in the fundemental part of a high performance saw that radically effects its ability to perform...its a big problem! If over time this plays out to a quality and performance reduction relative to the past; the brand will suffer reguardless of what happens here at AS.

    So I don't care how this is thrashed and hashed...wheather your a Stihl person or Kawasaki person, Husqvarna..or Husqvarna(Motorcycle) person who understands performance and has seen a lot of Cylinders..those pictures are disturbing. (but all brands do have there "lemons'' so this ONE pic isn't the end of the world!)

    IF Stihl & raw statisical/imperical real life data can keep those who are watching this (and a typical customer) convinced that lousy finish in and around the ports along with the obvious porosity of those castings is an exception not the norm, life goes along happily. If not, Stihl has a marketing issue that will grow and eventually impact sales. AND its not just this thread..we all sometimes assume we here are the only ones privy to this stuff. Trust me, many more than appear here understand what a lousy casting is and poor fit and finish in cylnder ports will do to performance..and many more than post here take apart saws...and if over a period of time these type of casting ARE the norm, that will become conventional wisdom about the brand JUST as it did when Stihl had better than average parts and performance.

    It KILLS me to watch those who understand all this and the relative impact these type of castings & resultant port variance issues have; attempt to bluster thru the real heart of the issue as if they don't agree after all the years they have spent building the mythology of Stihls quality & performance.

    Just because this may be the new norm for a particular brand, that doesn't make it all good.....and certainly makes it harder to spend those extra bucks vs. competition.

    I'm Stihl betting that one was a fluke not the norm..even with a Sthl "in house" vs. contracted out Malhe casting difference.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2009
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  6. joatmon

    joatmon Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Ed,

    Just pray you "significant other" doesn't call Dr. K. Let your "significant other" that dr. joat is close and available for a small fee.

    I'll negotiate for that 076 in lieu of fee at the funeral,

    dr. joat
     
  7. edisto

    edisto Spelling/Reality Check

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    Sorry Joat...it wouldn't work out. She's a bit of a "do it yourself"er herself.

    She also shares my appreciation for quality, so you probably wouldn't make her list if she was looking for a professional.
     
  8. joatmon

    joatmon Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Ed,

    10-4. It's so hard to establish yourself these days.

    ole joat
     
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  9. bcorradi

    bcorradi Arboristsite.com Sponsor

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    Does the comment, do you pump your brakes 12k per minute add anything of substance to the conversation?

    How do you acknowledge me as a blind supporter vs you being a blind supporter yourself? What more do you have to offer except minimal technical and scientific evidence that says the cylinder portrayed is detrimental to the performance of the product in question? Have I tore down more of the manufacturer's saws in question along with husqvarna saws then you have? I feel pretty confident saying yes....do you feel otherwise?

    What is the purpose of taking a picture of your saws in your signature line? Is it to drive home the fact that you and your wife appreciate high quality products? If so, I think you may be lacking the highest quality saws, even in the manufacturer's displacement levels you have represented.

    I get a kick out of your comment "It isn't fun here"...what are you referring to? It must be fun here for you, since you seem to frequent the site quite often throughout the day?

    How can you say the guy that says he is making the master cylinders for toyota is anymore unsubstantiated than your comments? At least he is involved in the manufacturing process ....what are you involved in the "criticism department"?

    I also like your comment....about the class full of retards...I have no idea what level of education you teach. However, if you do teach at the college level, I personally learned the most from a computer logics class that was graded on a curve that the average 'A' was a mid 50's or less percentile. I also think that if your teaching at a college level and you have a class full of retards, it may have to do with the quality of teaching of the teacher.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2009
  10. bcorradi

    bcorradi Arboristsite.com Sponsor

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    SDM,

    I think it is probably a mahle 44.7 mm 260 cylinder? Do I get the $10 Thall was offering in the other thread? :)
    Take care,
    Brad
     
  11. edisto

    edisto Spelling/Reality Check

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    The point of the comment was that the quality of Toyota's master cylinders doesn't add "anything of substance to the conversation", and certainly does not excuse a drop in quality without a drop in price.

    I neither acknowledged you nor labelled you as a blind supporter. I stated that if you read my posts on this thread, and reached the conclusion that I'm here to rub the Stihl owner's noses in this mess, then you either have a reading comprehension issue, or you are missing the substance because of an unhealthy emotional involvement. At the time I assumed the latter was the more plausible option.

    Let me make it perfectly clear: I always respected the quality of Stihl's chainsaws. What I have attempted to express is disappointment in what seems to be a decline in quality, and disappointment in those who would enable such a decline by choosing to ignore it.

    I would say you are absolutely right, but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Is this what the majority of cylinders look like from all companies? Have Stihl cylinders always looked this way? I haven't had the opportunity to see as many of them as you have, but I have made a point of reading as much as I can find on how to improve them, both in terms of performance and durability. Maybe I'm reading the wrong things, but this:
    [​IMG]
    sure looks like it would be hard on the rings. Does your experience tell you otherwise? Is this how you would finish a transfer? Is this how other companies do it? Is this how Stihl has always done it? If not, then there has been a reduction in quality.

    Not top of the line saws for sure, but they were the best I could afford. Given that you felt it necessary to follow Joat's lead and bring my wife into this, I'll point out that she is staying home with our 15 month old, so money is a little tight. The picture represents right around $600 total investment, and I went with used saws that I respected (except for the 141, which was sent to me by my dad when I told him the 61 was a little heavy for climbing) rather than something new that I didn't. The picture is there because I like my saws...I'm sorry that you don't.

    The full quote was: "I do have fun with Stihl owners (and Chevy owners) on other threads, but it is just that...fun. It continues to be fun if the level of quality is the same. As I've stated numerous times in this thread, it isn't fun here, it is just sad."

    The statement was not well-written, so I will clarify for you. Making fun of Stihl is only fun because both Stihl and Husqvarna produce high-quality products. My involvement in this thread isn't to rub salt in any wounds, because those wounds are appearing to be real. So, the statement was intended to mean that saying "Stihl sucks" isn't any fun when it becomes true.

    The point that he appeared to be making was that this reduction in quality is acceptable because other companies are doing the same thing. That is a premise I reject.

    "That's why I don't "curve" grades in the classes I teach."

    Again, let me clarify for you, because it seems you have a problem interpreting my writing: I don't curve grades in the classes I teach.


    I would have to agree with you there. It seems you have great difficulty understanding what I write, and so at least part of the blame should fall on me.
     
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  12. edisto

    edisto Spelling/Reality Check

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    One of the few professions where it doesn't pay to advertise.
     
  13. Sawdustmaker

    Sawdustmaker Addicted to ArboristSite

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    dead right. i think it looks fine.... it is already on the saw.

    $10??? i guess you need to ask tommie
     
  14. Sawdustmaker

    Sawdustmaker Addicted to ArboristSite

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    uummm.. that never touches the piston let alone the rings....
     
  15. edisto

    edisto Spelling/Reality Check

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    Hey...that is the bottom of the cylinder at the top! I need to label my pictures better...or learn to read.

    [​IMG]

    Same problem, opposite end of the port.

    I quoted David St. Hubbins before, so I'll do it again: "You shan't recover from this one."

    That's what I get for recording in Dubbly.
     
  16. weimedog

    weimedog Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Back to the beginning:

    Couple of things to consider. Some roughness in the ports probably won't mean all that much, for that matter there was a theory many years ago turbulance at the boundary layer could actually help flow vs. having laminar flow at the boundary layer and the resultant shear...either way no big deal and an easy source of income to saw builders!

    The porosity resulting in a porous spot in the combustion chamber can create "hot spots" making timing a biatch. A hot spot tends to produce pre-ignition under prolonged loadings as the temps rise inside the combustion chamber. Especially on air cooled designs. Thats a biggy for performance types and should be for pros. Thats a situation that should not find its way into a pro saw. Period. Can't fix them if they are too deep or removing metal reveals yet another random pourosity issue, and this makes an issue not even saw builders can fix...And those "Chips" at the edge....possible more issues? Were they created from the casting being tossed into a parts bin or from yet more porosity issues? I can't tell from the photo's.

    The appearance of "core shift" like variations in the ports and the resultant missalignment causing the altering of port location & shapes and therefore port timing & flow characteristics can cause performance variations from saw to saw. A lot of builders simply can clean up nasty work like that and get performance increases...years ago it was called "blue printing" or simply bringing a component into the better side of design tolerances. A LARGER source of income for builders...bring those nasty castings to tolerance!

    The result of those "core shifting" like issues created the "beveling" issue down stream, which might under certain cercumstances snag a ring over time. That particular sharp edge in of itself isn't the issue...you folks have to keep your eye on the ball. The issue is the poor dimensional consistancy from casting to casting, in some cases creating situations were that "sharp" edge where the beveling didn't happen occurs.

    Bottom line? Porosity & Dimensional irregularities in a casting reaching a production pro level saw. This wasn't much of an issue for years with the better two stroke builders, including Stihl; and now some of this has reappeared on a premium priced pro level saw brand. Not right with the manufacturing technology available world wide today. Speaks to a much larger issue within Stihl, IF this is a trend...or it can be an anomoly and not a big issue at all! ..Take your pick. But trying to waste time rationalizing poor castings as being some how acceptable is ridiculous.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2009
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  17. edisto

    edisto Spelling/Reality Check

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    Very nicely done Weimedog. I know you've covered many of these aspects before in different posts, but I think putting it all together like this is pretty helpful. At least for me.

    The length of the thread is due to a lack of focus, and I'm one of the guilty parties....hopefully this will prevent future diversions.
     
  18. Sawdustmaker

    Sawdustmaker Addicted to ArboristSite

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  19. HuskyPete

    HuskyPete ArboristSite Member

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    Thought I'd add my 2 cents. Lot's of posts but everyone seems to acknowledge that quality has slipped. Everything is bottom line because no one wants to pay for quality. Look at the quality of after market P&C. Not too good. If you still want quality better buy a Husky while you can. Do we really have another 500 posts for this subject?:
     
  20. Woodie

    Woodie "Cap'n Bullcrap'n"

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    Bump...

    ( :D )
     

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