Outside masonry chimney

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bama

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I have a wood furnace in my basement and it is built/ducted in a way that the chimney was built outside the house many years ago. It is not practical to build a chimney inside the house, so I am going to put a new one up while doing my other renovations.

I have read that an outside chimney is not ideal because in cold temperatures, the combustable gases cool off and form too much creasote. I did some research and learned that I could build an enclosure over the chimney to help it from getting so cold.

My question is this: It has lasted for almost 40 years without an enclosure, so do I really need to do this? I clean my chimney two or three times a year and it does form creasote(3-5 gallons) in the fall and spring, not much in the winter. We run from -30 to +30 degrees in the main heating months.

I don't get a lot of smoke in the house and don't have trouble with downdrafts, so is it worth the time and effort. I also was looking at making a fresh air inlet to pull outside air into my furnace once my home gets more airtight. My dad can pretty much build anything.

Any thoughts? Anyone have experience with enclosed or non-enclosed masonry chimneys? The chimney will cost me about $750 in materials and to enclose it will cost a few hundred more.
 
it's true.

a chimney on the outside of a house does have more draft problems than one built in the center for the reasons you stated: they get colder on the inside and the colder it is, the harder it works to draft properly.

i don't know about your zoning laws, but many places require an outside chimney to be sleeved now rather than using tiles. if there are no codes on this, research it a little more on the internet.

i am in no way implying that an outside chimney doesn't work, it just has a harder time drafting air during the initial start up of a fire. since your's is there and functional, if a cover, as you suggested, would help...try it.

i always liked the idea of venting air from the outside to feed a fire place and thought of doing that myself.

but, you stated "to my furnace". if you meant a gas or oil furnace, this would be a bad move.
 
Disclaimer: I am not a certified chimney specialist!

I would consider getting the existing chimney inspected. If all was well, I would use it. As long as the fire was hot, (350 F and up) and the wood was seasoned, there is a good chance you would be okay.

Are you doing a lot of low temp burning in the fall and spring. This type of burning would suggest why you are getting so much creosote.

Finally, We two chimneys. One is a masonry on the end of the house in the garage (somewhat enclosed) and the other is on the outside of the house, but enclosed in framing and siding (Stainless steel triple wall). The masonry one (fireplace) never needs cleaned. The Stainless steel one gets cleaned 4 times a year and it is the one we use for the wood stove.
 
For builders . . .The Evil Outside Chimney

The Evil Outside Chimney:

http://www.woodheat.org/chimneys/evilchim.htm

A chimney hanging off the side of a house like an afterthought is an abomination, functionally and aesthetically. The Wood Heat Organization:
Answers to your questions about burning wood for heat and enjoyment.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For builders . . .
The Evil Outside Chimney
If you design or build houses I need to have a serious talk with you about chimneys. I know that chimneys are hardly the most glamorous aspect of the building business and maybe your eyes glaze over when subject comes up, but I'm here to offer a different take on chimneys, one you probably haven't heard before.

So respecting your busy schedule and your lack of interest in chimneys, here is the bottom line: chimneys belong inside houses. The facts demonstrate without question that masonry chimneys built onto the sides of houses so their profile shows, or metal chimneys enclosed in framed chases, even though they might look alright, don't work well at all. In fact, I suggest that a chimney hanging off the side of a house like an afterthought is an abomination, functionally and aesthetically.

Chimneys belong inside houses. I'm serious.

But as I look around, it's apparent that the majority of houses less than 50 years old were designed and built by people who don't share my views. Outside chimneys are rampant. They are everywhere, hordes of them in tract developments, and ones and twos stuck on big custom houses. It's not a class thing — the urban rich and the rural poor all seem to get outside chimneys these days.

Another thing I've noticed, a lot of people complain about their fireplaces being fussy and hard to light without getting a room full of smoke. And they complain because when the fireplace is not being used, the doors and the hearth are cold. If your houses have fireplaces, you've probably heard the complaints. Hey, you might be one of the complainers.

I know what you're thinking. You think I'm going to make a connection between outside chimneys and annoying fireplaces. Well, there is a connection and I can prove it, if you'll let me explain.

And it's not just fireplaces – wood stoves suffer the same problems when connected to outside chimneys. Although oil furnaces have fans that pump exhaust gases into the chimney, their outside chimneys spill a lot of cold air into basements between firing cycles. Conventional gas furnaces and hot water heaters are famous for spilling their exhaust gas as well as cold air from the chimney into basements. The common feature of all these failures to flow properly is the outside chimney.

I usually talk about fireplaces because they are the object of most complaints. People don't give a damn what their gas furnace is doing, unless chronic backdrafting leads to carbon monoxide poisoning. But when the male of the species has romance on his mind, or more serious still, is about to demonstrate his superior fire-building skills for the neighbors, and the room promptly fills with smoke, the air may be blue with more than smoke. Anyway, the science is the same for all chimney vented combustion equipment and the science says put the chimney inside.

You think I'm stalling. Okay, here's the proof. A chimney is an essentially vertical structure enclosing a space full of air and/or exhaust gas. When it is operating, the contents of the chimney flue are warmer than the outdoor air. Because of its buoyancy, the warm air and/or exhaust gas rises, creating the desired upward flow in the chimney. The flow and the force that cause it are referred to as draft.

Chimneys are in the business of expelling air and/or exhaust gas outside. It is no trivial matter when outside air comes down a chimney into a house. Backdrafting, as it is called by those in the know, is roughly like the wings falling off an AirBus. It is precisely the opposite of the desired behavior. It is a catastrophic event in the life of the chimney.

Most builders and maybe even some architects working in moderate-to-cold climates have heard of the "house as a system" principle which suggests that the house functions as a system rather than as a number of unrelated parts and that its various sub-systems, particularly those that move or contain air, behave in an interactive way — one might say they influence each other. You probably knew that already.

And this: When it's cold outside, the warm air inside makes the house act sort of like a chimney. The warm air in the house wants to rise because it is less dense, more buoyant, than the cold air outside. So, when it is cold out the air pressure high in the house is positive, slightly higher than the atmospheric pressure outside. And the air pressure low in the house is negative, slightly lower than atmospheric pressure. This phenomenon is called stack effect. Somewhere between the high pressure high in the house and low pressure low in the house is a zone of neutral pressure which is called, rather cleverly, the neutral pressure plane.

Now that we have the ingredients assembled, we'll build a truly lousy fireplace just to examine the backdraft phenomenon. This particular one we'll build out of bricks although it could just as easily be a factory-built fireplace and metal chimney enclosed by a framed enclosure or chase.

The fireplace is located on the first floor of a two story house. The first thing we decide is to have the back of the fireplace and its chimney project out from the brick veneer wall of the house. The projection is wide at the bottom and tapers above the fireplace to the outline of the chimney as the brickwork rises. It's a nice architectural element, don't you think, adding interest to an otherwise blank wall? As is normal in this type of construction, there is insulation in the walls of the rooms upstairs between the chimney brick and the drywall.

It is 0°C or 32°F outside and the basement furnace is keeping the house at a comfortable 21°C or 72°F. There is no fire in the fireplace, and hasn't been for days. The couple who bought the house are sitting in the living room near the fireplace and she comments that her ankles are cold. He reaches down to the carpet and verifies that it's cool there. They trace it to the fireplace and start to gripe about the jerk that built the house or the mason, or whoever it is they feel comfortable blaming.

Let's just stop here and take stock. The chimney is brick with a clay tile liner, no insulation. For much of its length there is an insulation barrier preventing the chimney from gaining heat from the house. The chimney gives up its heat to the outside and as the average temperature of the air in the chimney falls, the draft declines and the upward flow in the chimney becomes less stable.

Meanwhile, the house is at a stable temperature from top to bottom which is higher than the average temperature in the chimney now that it has cooled. The negative pressure low in the house due to stack effect is more powerful than the draft being developed in the chimney and the chimney backdrafts. Remember the AirBus? The couple who bought the house are suffering the cold hearth syndrome and are ticked off as cold outside air gushes down the chimney onto the hearth and into the low pressure zone caused by stack effect in the house.

The cold hearth syndrome is caused when the house acts as a better chimney than the chimney. You might think that's a trite little saying and actually that's the reason I like it so much — and the fact that it's true and accurate in every way. The house works better as a chimney because the air inside it stays warm, buoyant and wants to rise, unlike the air in the outside chimney that gives up its heat to the great outdoors.

Another thing worthy of note is that a cold backdraft like this is quite stable. Once the air starts flowing down, the chimney really cools off fast. That is why when you light a fire in a backdrafting fireplace, there's a good chance you'll get a face full of smoke.

Although our example uses a brick fireplace, note that a factory-built fireplace with its backside hanging off the side of the house in a flimsy frame chase is every bit as likely to spill cold air, odors and smoke into the room as is a masonry fireplace with its back showing from the outside. The common cause of their failure is their outside location. Bring the same systems inside and they'll work fine.
 
#2

Here is the harsh reality: When you combine an outside chimney with an appliance installation below the neutral pressure plane of the house, the system will suffer the cold hearth syndrome during cold weather. Period. The result is just as certain for furnaces and water heaters, only it's not called the cold hearth syndrome, it's called a cold basement.

Now, I don't know about you, but I find this astounding. In many areas of North America the majority of chimneys run up outside the building envelope, outside the heated space. And I just showed that if you do this, an appliance installed low in the house will screw up when it is cold outside. Don't you think we should have talked about this sooner? Don't you think someone should have said something?

It's fashionable lately to talk about houses that are so tight that the stove or fireplace — or whatever — "can't get enough air". Meanwhile, the chimney is out in the cold, crippled from the start by its location. The not-enough-air claim is mostly nonsense. Few houses are so tight that a healthy chimney can't pull enough air to run a heating appliance. Open fireplaces, having a huge appetite for house air, are an entirely different matter.

Let's be clear – take the same chimney and move it inside the house envelope, to the warm side of the insulation, and it will be transformed. It will make draft, lots of it, and quick as kindling. This chimney will always perform better than the house and even when there is no fire burning, it will gently tug the air at each leak in the fireplace. When you open the doors to light a fire, air from the room rushes in and up the chimney. When you light the kindling fire the smoke goes up the flue immediately and you'll have a hot bright fire very soon. It's a fine chimney, you'll say with satisfaction.

If you work at it, you can overcome even a good (read inside) chimney, by, for example, turning on a large exhaust system like one of those downdraft kitchen range exhausts for indoor barbecuing. Some of these suckers are powerful enough to make your ears pop, or at least to backdraft a fireplace chimney. Here's my advice for people with chimneys: Barbecue outside. You don't have to like my advice.

If you can't do without the monster kitchen exhaust, you could hire an engineer and have an equally monster fan-forced make-up air system designed and installed, one that is interlocked to turn on when the range fan is switched on.

There are builders who tell me they won't give up the expensive floor space that the fireplace would occupy if it wasn't hanging off the side of the house in a chase. To them I say, fine, then start building chases that are truly inside the building envelope, part of the heated space. Run the insulated chase to the top of the house envelope, seal it properly and do not isolate the chase from the house with insulation. Of course that would be fussy and expensive detail work to do properly. But if you see yourself as a quality builder, you are kidding yourself to do less. You can either act on my advice or you can listen to complaints. Pick one.

One last thing, I'd prefer you didn't shoot the messenger. I've just given you a brief physics lesson on how gravity and temperature affect air flow. You learned that chimneys belong inside houses. Now quit fighting it and quit complaining. Start putting chimneys inside. You'll be a better, more successful builder for it.

JG
 
I have an ancient masonry chimney, and the warmer it stays the better all around. If it was in the budget, it falls into the 'while we're at it' let's do it all the way. You say it has worked to your satisfaction up to now, and it's well documented that a warmer chimney(ambient) is a more efficient one, so it will only work better, and the warm wrap will snazzy it up.

Our old chimney is masonry, plain, but runs up the center of the house, performs okay(inside dimension too big), just being warm all the time helps, but sizing is equally important, and we also have a wood burning furnace, runs from nov 1-mar 31, minimum. The amount of creosote buildup for the whole season would equal 3/8" total, and it's the dry, powdery stuff, no where near the amount you get, so maybe the extra work and expense would keep the new chimney cleaner, working better, and safer.

One other item about our masonry chimney, what a great radiator of warmth, full exposure in the basement, 2 sides in main floor, and full exposure upstairs, and attic, great place to sit and read a book after doing winter chores.

My wordy Abe's.
 
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i recently installed a new boiler and the question came up about whether or not i had to sleeve my flue because it runs up the chumney. (one flue if for the boiler and one for the fireplace) i was going to buy the stainless sleeve, but i called the town first and asked what they recommend.

the first question he asked was where the chimney was located. i stated in the center of the house. he said it was OK to install the boiler without sleeving it. he then went on to say why an "outside" chimney must be sleeved for the reasons mentioned above: they just don't draft well when cold.
 
i always liked the idea of venting air from the outside to feed a fire place and thought of doing that myself.

but, you stated "to my furnace". if you meant a gas or oil furnace, this would be a bad move.

I just have a wood furnace, so no oil or gas here. It wouldn't be hard to hook something up over the draft control of the furnace and hook it up to an outside air supply. After this remodel, there will be a lot less air leaks to pull air from.
 
Thanks, Rspike, for the info and links. That seems to agree with what I had read.

I don't have as much trouble with getting a draft as the article states I should. I just crumple up a few sheets of newspaper and light it before I light the kindling. The only time I get a backdraft is in the summertime. So, I now remove the pipe from the concrete wall and shove fiberglass insulation in it until I need to use the furnace in the fall. Stops the smell and the draft.

The original chimney is too close to the house to add the insulation when I remodel, so I plan to knock it down and build a new one. It also has several cracked blocks and is 35-40 years old. It is a very small town, so while building codes are in existence, I don't think anyone would notice replacing the old with the new: my backyard is the edge of town.

Does anyone have a masonry block/clay flue chimney that they have enclosed? I could put a sleeve in the new one, but I think that would add significant cost to the project and unless the chimney is warmed up, I don't see how a sleeve would increase the burn of the gases.
 

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