too much bar?

[Trapper_Pete]

there is a time and place for long bars

this was more a question of the bar being too much for the saw it is on

you can run a longer bar and fewer cutters or a bigger saw to accomplish the task you need done.

but always putting the largest possible bar on a saw or an even larger bar than the saw manufacturer rates it for seems like unnecessary wear and expense

 

[sb47]

there is a time and place for long bars

this was more a question of the bar being too much for the saw it is on

you can run a longer bar and fewer cutters or a bigger saw to accomplish the task you need done.

but always putting the largest possible bar on a saw or an even larger bar than the saw manufacturer rates it for seems like unnecessary wear and expense

I agree. It takes all kinds and a lot of people do dumb things, but maybe some are just showing off there long bar that only gets used on specialty jobs and they have multiple bars for different jobs. I'm sure this site is full of those type of users.
There is a big problem with sales people that don't have the proper knowledge for what they are selling. They don't care to know the product there selling, there job is just a paycheck. Good help is hard to find when they don't offer a decent wage.

 

[Trapper_Pete]

I agree. It takes all kinds and a lot of people do dumb things, but maybe some are just showing off there long bar that only gets used on specialty jobs and they have multiple bars for different jobs. I'm sure this site is full of those type of users.
There is a big problem with sales people that don't have the proper knowledge for what they are selling. They don't care to know the product there selling, there job is just a paycheck. Good help is hard to find when they don't offer a decent wage.

Absolutely , I didn't buy my first saw from the local saw shop didn't know he was there yet , found him a year or two later.
I am lucky enough that he is a one man shop , and cares about what he sends out the door.

 

[turnkey4099]

there is a time and place for long bars

this was more a question of the bar being too much for the saw it is on

you can run a longer bar and fewer cutters or a bigger saw to accomplish the task you need done.

but always putting the largest possible bar on a saw or an even larger bar than the saw manufacturer rates it for seems like unnecessary wear and expense

Unless one only has rare occasions to need such a bar. Doesn't justify buying a new saw for only a short job if a saw one already has will do an "acceptable' (vs great) job.

 

[James Miller]

Sure is getting close to the strap.

I see guys the square file getting into the strap all the time even on a basic firewood chain. That was the first time I clamped a saw in a vice and really took my time instead of just touching up the cutter. I have a lot to learn when it comes to hand filing.

 

[Trapper_Pete]

Unless one only has rare occasions to need such a bar. Doesn't justify buying a new saw for only a short job if a saw one already has will do an "acceptable' (vs great) job.

having a 32 inch bar with skip tooth chain for your 55 cc saw would be fine for your stump cuts and occasional big round. the point is matching the cutters in the wood to the power of the saw.

and not always just running the biggest bar a saw will accept because bigger is better and makes the saw cut more.

 

[jchipps]

View attachment 689829
is this what you are looking for?

As others have mentioned, you're not getting the throat (gullet) of the tooth.
When it's not corrected, your file continues riding higher and higher each time you file, and you'll end up with a side profile that looks like the pic you posted. Kind of a leaning vertical line ( / ) instead of the somewhat ( C ) shaped hook like you want.

Could be various things causing this:

More than likely, you're simply holding too much upward pressure on your file. No need for that. Let your file do it's own work in the tooth. No need for extreme upward or downward pressure. Let the file glide through the tooth, cutting equally all around. As you go, you can adjust up or down as need be with very SLIGHT pressure to keep the tooth profile correct and that gullet gutted. ( To correct those teeth you have, you 'will' need to apply some good downward pressure and get the gullet cut out)

One other thing I notice:
For the amount of tooth length still left on that chain, your rakers look to be filed extremely low.
Don't get me wrong, I like a 'little extra' aggression on my rakers, even more so in softer wood.

Maybe it's just the pic, but it looks like those rakers are EXTREMELY low ... I'm guessing .050 or more?

 

[Trapper_Pete]

As others have mentioned, you're not getting the throat (gullet) of the tooth.
When it's not corrected, your file continues riding higher and higher each time you file, and you'll end up with a side profile that looks like the pic you posted. Kind of a leaning vertical line ( / ) instead of the somewhat ( C ) shaped hook like you want.

Could be various things causing this:

More than likely, you're simply holding too much upward pressure on your file. No need for that. Let your file do it's own work in the tooth. No need for extreme upward or downward pressure. Let the file glide through the tooth, cutting equally all around. As you go, you can adjust up or down as need be with very SLIGHT pressure to keep the tooth profile correct and that gullet gutted. ( To correct those teeth you have, you 'will' need to apply some good downward pressure and get the gullet cut out)

One other thing I notice:
For the amount of tooth length still left on that chain, your rakers look to be filed extremely low.
Don't get me wrong, I like a 'little extra' aggression on my rakers, even more so in softer wood.

Maybe it's just the pic, but it looks like those rakers are EXTREMELY low ... I'm guessing .050 or more?

I wonder if it seems like I am using upward pressure because I am using a guide that keeps the file at the top and should just use the file without guide?

I may be a little low on the rakers , I like the chip that is pulling and it isn't slowing that saw down with the 18 inch bar through the wood I am cutting.

most of what I get is maple that has been dead 2-3 years much of it standing dead wood

 

[jchipps]

I wonder if it seems like I am using upward pressure because I am using a guide that keeps the file at the top and should just use the file without guide?

I may be a little low on the rakers , I like the chip that is pulling and it isn't slowing that saw down with the 18 inch bar through the wood I am cutting.

most of what I get is maple that has been dead 2-3 years much of it standing dead wood

Yeah it may just be the pic that's making the rakers look low? If it's not herky jerky in the wood, the rakers are possibly okay.
As to the file guide, that's your choice. Personally I'd throw that thing as far as I could throw it, or give it away to someone you don't like.
My opinion: Those guides and gadgets are totally unnecessary, and take away 'your control' to file the tooth 'correctly'.

 

[sb47]

I have been watching some Japanese saw mill videos and they commonly use an electric saw mounted on something similar to a dolly. It looks like a great way to cut large logs without any strain on the back from holding a heavy saw with a heavy long bar.

 

[turnkey4099]

having a 32 inch bar with skip tooth chain for your 55 cc saw would be fine for your stump cuts and occasional big round. the point is matching the cutters in the wood to the power of the saw.

and not always just running the biggest bar a saw will accept because bigger is better and makes the saw cut more.

yep. I run skip tooth chain on every bar down to, and including, the 20" Most of my bucking is with 20 or 24". While laying the 32" bar into a 30" or so log is fun, hoisting it around from cut to cut gets old in a hurry

 

[turnkey4099]

Yeah it may just be the pic that's making the rakers look low? If it's not herky jerky in the wood, the rakers are possibly okay.
As to the file guide, that's your choice. Personally I'd throw that thing as far as I could throw it, or give it away to someone you don't like.
My opinion: Those guides and gadgets are totally unnecessary, and take away 'your control' to file the tooth 'correctly'.

I beg to differ in the use of guides. I use the one that can be set to different angles and depth. Once on the bar it is really fast to file teeth and knowthat every tooth has the right depth/angle. I don't even have to look at what I am doing.

I understand the pride in being able to 'free hand' file a chain but it isn't needed with the right guide.

 

[sb47]

I beg to differ in the use of guides. I use the one that can be set to different angles and depth. Once on the bar it is really fast to file teeth and knowthat every tooth has the right depth/angle. I don't even have to look at what I am doing.

I understand the pride in being able to 'free hand' file a chain but it isn't needed with the right guide.

I like to use this kind of guide.
Not so much for finding the right angle but for not letting the file dig too deep into the chain link.
The angle is easy to follow but if the file digs too deep it changes part of the height angle.
There are 3 different angles you have to get correct when sharpening a chain properly.

Then I use this one for setting the rakers

 

[Trapper_Pete]

I am currently using the stihl sharpening guide it is a round file with guide , a raker file and a raker depth gauge in a tool roll makes it convenient to not get lost in my tool bag.

I have to admit I taught myself to file for the most part , I didn't find AS till 2016 when I was looking for info on putting a new top end on a saw.

everyone I knew just send their chains in to be ground , so when I found an Oregon file and guide I figured I could save some money I filed following the shape of the cutter and for just several minutes of my time I had a sharp chain again , then I realized after several sharpenings I needed to lower the rakers so I bought an Oregon raker file and gauge and lowered the rakers , I learned what a good chip looked like and through just doing found what worked the for me. over the past 11 years of cutting firewood for heat. I had a used homelite for about 7 years before that that I picked up when I bought my first house but I used maybe 1 chain a year and just had it ground but I didn't have a wood stove then.

I had cut before that I started about 14 with my grandpas saw
grandpa, my dad's father in law blew up my dads J-red when I was very little maybe 3 so after that Grandpa owned chainsaws all Stihl and my dad would just use his saws we lived a 1/4 mile apart and my dad really only did maybe 2 trees a year but don't bring it up dad still isn't happy about the J-red 40 years later. although he got over it enough to go partners on a vertical horizontal log splitter with him about 20 years later .
when I was 15-18 I ran saw for the farm I worked . but the boss sent chains in to get ground.

I bought the Stihl guide because it stayed on the file better with thumb screws than than the spring clips

I will give it a try no guide and see how I like it .

the more I learn the more I realize it's a lot like fishing some gear is just to sell the fisherman and not the fish.
figure out what works and simplify simplify simplify.

 

[CLASSIIILVR]

LOGGING IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST WE STILL HAVE SOME GOOD SIZE WOOD AND MOVING DOWN THE TREE LENGTH BUMPING LIMBS IS A HECK OF A LOT EASIER WITH A 32 ON A 461 OR 36" ON AN 066/660 ETC THEN BEING BENT OVER ALL THE TIME. THEN ON LANDINGS WHERE WE ARE BUCKING AND BUMPING KNOTS ITS PRETTY MUCH THE SAME THING....BEING BENT OVER CUTTING WOOD ON THE GROUND ALL DAY WOULD SMOKE YOUR LOWER BACK AND YOU WOULDNT BE WORTH A DAMN AFTER A FEW HOURS! LOL!

AND LIKE HAS BEEN SAID...WE ARE HARVESTING MOSTLY FIR AND THEN PINE AND THE HARDWOOD IS MADRONE OR OAK AND THOSE HARDWOODS ARENT TOO BAD TO BUCK WHEN GREEN.

IM JUST BUYING ANOTHER 461 AND ITS FULL WRAP WITH 32" BAR FOR BUCKING AND BUMPING KNOTS. EVERY ONES PERSONAL CHOICE, BUT FOR ME ITS SAVE THE BACK SAVE THE BACK SAVE THE BACK! LOL!

 

[Trapper_Pete]

a 32 inch bar on a 76.5 cc saw really isn't over barring it in soft wood

this thread wasn't to put down large bars , it was to point out a lot of saws particularly small saws get over barred.

one popular box store saw right now is sold with a 20 inch bar on a 46cc saw. I can almost guarantee I can burn up a 46cc consumer grade saw with a 20 inch bar in a day running full comp chisel chain.

if you have a large tree to cut and not a large saw a big bar with skip tooth chain can increase the size of the bar without over barring the saw , it is about how many cutters are in the wood.

 

[turnkey4099]

I like to use this kind of guide.
Not so much for finding the right angle but for not letting the file dig too deep into the chain link.
The angle is easy to follow but if the file digs too deep it changes part of the height angle.
There are 3 different angles you have to get correct when sharpening a chain properly.

Then I use this one for setting the rakers

Yes, 3 to get right and my guide sets all three. I don't have to watch as I file each tooth. About 10 minutes total to do a 24" chain which includes putting saw in vise and mounting the guide. Granted I can't sharpen a chain 'in the field' but I can swap chains a lot faster than anyone can hand file to touch up a chain.

As to the depth guage, I have 3 of them, .025. 030 and unknown. I like the Stihl one that has the hooks on the end for cleaning the bar grove.

Te each his own but I suspect a lot of hand filers would change to a guide if they
tried a good one.

 

[rarefish383]

When I first saw this thread I figured it pertained to the home owner or firewood scrounger. Someone with one or two saws. Coming from a pro background, and having around 30 saws, I just have saws with different length bars on them and ready. The only thing I really cut anymore is standing dead Oak for firewood. I might use the Super 1050 with 45” or 36” to drop the log. As soon as possible switch to the 660 with 25”, then the 290 with a 20”. I did buy an MS 170 last year and have a lot of fun playing with it. But I really only use it for pruning fruit trees or stuff like that. The thought of having too much bar on a saw has never crossed my mind. When James ran one of my Super 1050’s with a 24”, and said it need more bar, I bought the 45”.

 

[rarefish383]

I have been watching some Japanese saw mill videos and they commonly use an electric saw mounted on something similar to a dolly. It looks like a great way to cut large logs without any strain on the back from holding a heavy saw with a heavy long bar.

Those are some big mills and costing many thousands of dollars, in the first video. I can mill 36” with the mill in my avatar. It’s a Homelite Super 1050, not light by any stretch. Once you get the saw on the guide rails you are not holding any weight. In that pic the mill is at shoulder to chin height. If I had to support any of that weight I’d be D.O.A.

 

[chipper1]

View attachment 689960 Heres a carlton with one side done and the other pretty much off the roll.

I tend to run the smallest bar possible to get the job done.

Looks great from here James .