Your opinion on the following: Proper etiquette when You break a borrowed saw.

[ropensaddle]

That cleared up some things, but opened up a few more doors.
The fact that the saw was not "opened up", means there is no modder factor to worry about. But it really makes one wonder what did happen to the saw now!! I think pics are needed to help us better understand this!! Normally a saw will just quit running, for something like this to have occured.

I know what happened to it it is a stihl case closed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[sawinredneck]

I know what happened to it it is a stihl case closed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here we go again!!!!

Never mind if it was a 3120 and threw crank out. Or a 575 and just overheated and siezed.

But yup, Stihl is junk, don't buy it, it wil fail you every time!!

GO ECHO!!!!!!!

 

[treesquirrel]

All I want to know is do you own a Corvette and can I borrow it for a weekend of drag racing?

 

[Pitt]

First, how did it work out that you have an modded 880, old enough to be out of warranty, but has only had 2 tanks of gas through it?

I bought the ways I own at one time 2 seasons ago, have no real use for them besides playing mechanic, so they sit and sit some more

What kind of oil are you using, in what ratio?
I use Husky or Echo oil in the small 1 gal size and I mix it under a gallon of gas at about .8 gal of gas to the gal worth of oil.

Did you leave mixed fuel and bar oil with the saw? If yes, was it used up? If no, what got ran through the saw?

I used the saw myself for 45 min while I was up there, so when I left I left it with a new chain, and the bottle of bar oil . the gas level was not noticed, but it was still running on my gas.

I also read your earlier posts about your new 372 blowing up too. Somethings not right....

Agreed. My local shop guy seems to just say the same thing over and over again regarding breaks. He however got second opinion, and I sent the saw far out to where you guys seem to have wood to cut. I sent it to Washington to be repaired.

Whenever I go to help someone out, my saws come and go with me. If I've got to loan one out, I've got 2 poulans for loaners. If one of them gets blowed up, I can just giggle and go on.

Well thats Just the thing. He wanted to know what was so different about these saws compared to the six pack of homelites and poulens he had gone through, trying of all things.. to mill a piece of hardwood that fell in his yard. I said, I have just the thing for you. Before you ask, no, he never got up to running the saw in that position or with that chain.

I'd never loan out ANY $2k tool, unless I could afford to eat the loss if it came back broke.
See this puzzles me.. You seem to share his opinion.. Why should I expect anything to be returned worse for ware then when I lent it? Use sure, abuse, broken? NO! Thats not what I believe friends do to one another.

If I broke the above rule, there would be a "you break it you buy it" understanding in place before it changed hands.

I thought that was a given.. When You come to my house, I don't mention that you shouldn't take a crap on my floor either, I expect you to behave like a good person. Same applies with this Laval of friend. Yes is the neighbor who happens to be a suit wearing guy asks to borrow something from the Snap-On box, he gets the education and speech because he knows nothing about the value of what he has asked for. This is not the case here.. I boasted about this saw when i bought it. He know I was very proud and excited about my insane purchase.

All around, its a bad situation to be in, because you can't put a dollar value on a good friendship. If you can, it isn't a very good friendship.

Agreed. My problem is not the $. As I said in the above post, I will cover the fix. My problem is the mindset. I'm not sure I can consider his sentiment the thought process of someone that I would value.. I want to understand why his thinking is correct, because to me, its incredibly selfish and apathetic.

In this case, you really need to determine if your buddy or his worker did something wrong with the saw or fuel. If he didn't, it was probably gonna blow anyway. If your buddy or his worker did something wrong, he should pay 100% to make it right.
Here lies the problem. He is strongly saying that nothing was don't to cause this. Yet he was not using the saw. He was not even present when the saw was used. So he has no idea what he day laborer did. He also feels that NOTHING should cause a saw to blow up if its running proper mix. I cannot disagree, but again neither of us have any experience. this is why I brought it here.

Either way, you should have known better than to let a huge, modded, pro saw out of your sight.

I guess so, but I think our reasoning is different. I hadn't thought about the say being by a careless person who might have hurt themselves..
Understand that besides reading here and common sense, I have little knowledge of these powerful tools. I have respect for them, and I think I am using them correctly, but I do not have anyone experienced showing me anything. Not how to stand, how to cut how to anything. My only speech I give to friends as well as myself is to work with your legs apart and to avoid using the tip of the bar because I read that there is a risk of kick back. I still cannot figure out how a chain moving in a forward direction can kick upward toward your face, but Hey, I don't want to find out either..

The real lesson is that nothing in life is easy or free to master.. from the guy who cuts your hair, to the guy who cuts your meat, to the guy who mows your lawn. They have all paid their dues. . If you want to learn or master this, I know its going to come with some broken item, some cost and some mistakes, I just hope broken saws are the worst problems I incur in pursuing this. Money, saws and other attainable things are no real loss. The loss of a loved one, or the loss of a limb are the only real issues I fear.

I wish I would have thought of this place before I sent out the saw, but unfortunately its already out. when the new guy gives me an estimate, I will politely ask if he would take a picture of the damage and ask his opinion as to how it occurred, if you all think thats reasonable to ask. I don't want to be the thorn in this guys ass either, buy asking for pictures and special attention.

 

[Pitt]

Here we go again!!!!

Never mind if it was a 3120 and threw crank out. Or a 575 and just overheated and siezed.

But yup, Stihl is junk, don't buy it, it wil fail you every time!!

GO ECHO!!!!!!!

This is a Joke I assume? I was working at the local mower shop as a kid, and Although they ran forever if serviced, echo was no rock solid machine. 2 coils on a backpack and one always went south.. Small engines that lost compression far to fast for my liking.. Right now I have not one but two echo string trimmers that are down, one for a skipping puller (the teeth are plastic) and one for a clogged primer bulb..

My husky dirt bike is a never rebuilt late 70's and starts every season.
Stihl's I not little about except a huge majority of the people who depend on a saw paying their rent around here choose Stihl and nothing else.. We don't even have many dealers of stihl here, but they are still the saw of choice by every professional I run past.

 

[sawinredneck]

I know what happened to it it is a stihl case closed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That was a reply to this, and this alone. Sorry about the derail, that had nothing to do with you. I am geting very sick of the Stihl/Husky wars.

 

[Pitt]

That was a reply to this, and this alone. Sorry about the derail, that had nothing to do with you. I am geting very sick of the Stihl/Husky wars.

Ah, no biggie.. In my Car world, we have the Snap-On VS Mac world. Snap on is more expensive and Mac has more gadget tools like right angle screw drivers, muffler bearing seals.. Some feel the finishing on snap on is well worth the excess $. Then you have the Screw it, a wrench is a wrench crew. They buy Craftsman, Husky, whatever fits and is guaranteed.. I assume these are the Dolmar and Jonson<spell? types you find here..

Being a city boy, you watch tv, watch the local tree guy and if you want bragging rights with your yuppie neighbors, you follow the pro.. I was lucky to acquire one of each, a husky and a stihl.. For my money, I don't see a any huge weight to Power ratio, build quality, or hand feel difference to sway me one way or another.. I will say that I have NEVER seen a professional rig in my are using Husky, and that meant tons to me. I still don't know if that is for any other reason then the stubborn old guy who just wont try anything else.

True story.. I had never dropped a tree and I promised to help a neighbor do just that.. After realizing I may be over my skill level, since the tree needed to be topped and it was touching a house, I called a friend who was a professional tree guy.. HE said sure and went through a list of the items he felt we would need.. when he got to saws, I proudly told him that I had JUST gotten my Husky 372xp and a 365 and a small top handle saw.. He said great, but that we would need to wait until Sun instead of Saturday, because he would need to go Borrow some Stihls before he came over.. And When he got here, I made him try the 365 which he did.. HE said it was a good strong saw. A good strong saw that "didn't seem right" and that I should return on monday.
.. Hahah. So thats that...

 

[sawinredneck]

I preffer Snap-on ratchets, and love the Flank-drive-plus wrenchs, I worked on mainly const equip. so I wasn't concerned about damaging the heads of the fastners. Sockets, I don't really care, snap-on mac or craftsman, other than the craftsman deeps seem thin and I have broken a couple of them. Keep the craftsman ratches, I don't want them!!!
I own two Stihls, two Huskies and an old Mall. I don't care as long as they run and do the job at hand. Never run a Dolmar, so I can' say. I've used Echo's, not a fan, they run fine and do the job, but they feel toyish to me.
Now as for asking for pics, I don't think the mechanic will find that request out of line at all. He may welcome it, as Stihl is known to moniter this site, and we have two very renowned Stihl techs that are very active members here. I, like several others here, would like to see the pics and try to figure out what happened to this saw. It's a very very very VERY rare occurence for somehing to come out of the block on one. Like I said, they usually sieze up first!
I did however, see a very odd thing the other night A buddy was tearing down his four wheeler, it was making an odd noise. At first we thought it was crank bearings, but had to tea it down anyway, so it was diagnosed as we went. Valve train wasn't the problem. Pulled the head, cylinder looked good, piston looked fine. Got to looking at the con rod, it was bent. "This is odd!!" Looked the head and cylinder over, nothing hit. HMMMMMMMM....... Grabed the con rod, and it would move, but stood srtaight up!!! The rod bearing had seized, broke free, kept running, then started to sieze again!! How his oy got that thing shut down without further damage is beyond me!!
This is why we are so curious, it's an odd thing to happen, and really odd with that saw!!
Please keep us up to date!

 

[Bermie]

OK felles....

HE was not there when it broke either.. He gues to spots where he can pick up day workers to help with projects on his property. He said that he left the guy alone and when the day was over he noticed the saw sitting out where he did not leave it. He then went to start the saw and realized that it was very broken.
It went there with proper mix in it.. The color of what came out is consistent with my mix (very dark) and he says that he doubts the guy added fuel .I usually mix the gallon's worth of 2 stroke oil at about .8 of a gal of gas.. I don't mind smoke and I have the theory it will lube more efficiently.. Am I wrong?

I Just wanted to know how many of you would call it the saws fault and not offer to fix it, and how many of you feel that if its in your care, its yours to repair..

Anyone notice this in relation to the mix?

Too much oil in your mix is NOT a good thing, it will lead to fouling of your spark plug and top of the piston... and cause the engine to labour, slow pickup, bad performance altogether! Not to mention the smoke!
Without being a fly on the wall (or a longhorn beetle on the bark!!) it's hard to say what happened, if you left it with one tank of fuel, and no premixed fuel to refill, what did he/they put in it to keep working??

Even worse, HE loaned out the saw that YOU loaned him and wasn't even there to see what happened, so he, in my opinion, is even more responsible to make the situation right. How anyone can loan a borrowed tool to someone else is beyond me!!!! Day worker, casual labour, any training, at alll??? Unlikely!
In my book,there is an unwritten assumed duty of care when you borrow something, you borrow it, you break it, you fix it, you return it!!!!

 

[Pitt]

Anyone notice this in relation to the mix?

Too much oil in your mix is NOT a good thing, it will lead to fouling of your spark plug and top of the piston... and cause the engine to labour, slow pickup, bad performance altogether! Not to mention the smoke!
Without being a fly on the wall (or a longhorn beetle on the bark!!) it's hard to say what happened, if you left it with one tank of fuel, and no premixed fuel to refill, what did he/they put in it to keep working??

Even worse, HE loaned out the saw that YOU loaned him and wasn't even there to see what happened, so he, in my opinion, is even more responsible to make the situation right. How anyone can loan a borrowed tool to someone else is beyond me!!!! Day worker, casual labour, any training, at alll??? Unlikely!
In my book,there is an unwritten assumed duty of care when you borrow something, you borrow it, you break it, you fix it, you return it!!!!

I run the same fuel in my echo stuff, backpacks, tiller, trimmer etc.. I am not saying that there is so much oil that you cause a throttle lag, at least not thats noticeable, but Its a tinge more blue around where I am working usually.

As for the friend and the worker.. I'm not sure how it is around the country, but here, we usually have a dozen or so "little guys" usually Hispanics that gather hoping to be picked up for a days work. My friend seems to have not thought of the big picture, such as expertise, insurance, safety or even labor laws. He thinks he is just getting a good days work for less. And you know what. he usually is.. again we are city boys, and he Just married a well off spouse and they bought a big home on 6 acres of undeveloped land and so This is very new to all of us. The day workers are really the teachers on most jobs.. I'm not sure what was entailed, but the job of the week was putting in a drainage ditch.. I was asked how to remove deep set roots and stumps, and he asked me what the result was when someone uses a chainsaw for that. I'm not saying that was it, but there is a fair chance the saw was stuck into the ground, hit a cable, rock etc.. I don't know..

As for the fuel, When I was there He has rented a bulldozer. there was reg gas, 2 stroke mix and diesel there. HE also owned a used saw he bought from home dept rental dept, so he has used a saw, has the proper gas and bar oil etc.. In fact, he went out and bought a rip chain and one of those frames to set the chainsaw and attempt to mill with it.. He found that the saw he bought was very labored when he attempted it.. Maybe thats what they did with the saw, again I have no idea..

Lastly, he didn't "lend" a lent tool. HE said " I made sure to take care of your ???? and put it all in my shed, I didn't realize that the guy was using your saw until the next day when I realized they went into the shed when I was not aware". So he did attempt to keep it within his possession I guess, but short Long story was, when he went to get lunch or supplies the guys working on the property used and killed the saw.. What bugs me is that they too didn't make him aware that they broke it. I know they are day guys, but he uses the same guys most days and for months now.. They are very familiar and comfortable. To me thats another sign that something went very wrong.

No matter what, Like most guys here, I don't say thanks for the kindness only when its convenient. Meaning if I break your 12 year old camera, there is no talk about it being 12 yrs old and here is $40. You had a camera, you don't have one now that its broken, You where kind enough to share it with me, and there is no way to make you whole again with a partial payment..
This was his issue with my bike he has borrow. Its an expensive carbon fiber road bike, all titanium parts. I got it on ebay for a great deal, yet if it was broken, I couldn't replace it for what I bought it for. No matter though because he said that he would not expect to have to replace or repair that item either.. HE truly feels that if it broke under use then it would be just part of the life cycle of that item.. Analogy was, if I borrow your toothpaste on a trip and I use the last of it, I am not obliged to purchase you a whole new tube am I? My answer is why not? Your not obliged no, but if someone gives or shares with me, the last thing I want to do is punish them by causing them loss.

As I wrote, I got the $ but so does he.. This is not about that.. Its really a cry for normalcy. I wanted to know If I was wrong in my thinking. I wont not be his friend, but knowing this is his outlook really bugs me. Like finding out your beer buddy dresses up like a clown and kills people at night.. Not easy to just swallow and move on... Hey maybe thats what he does with the saws??

 

[Bermie]

That sounds like normal use.

Maybe the saw was defective from the factory.

Huh? Normal use for an 88? That's what a beater is for....!

 

[ddhlakebound]

I used the saw myself for 45 min while I was up there, so when I left I left it with a new chain, and the bottle of bar oil . the gas level was not noticed, but it was still running on my gas.

Sounds to me like it was close to empty, then got put away. Then along comes the day laborer, who could really give a crap less wether the saw is live or dead at the end of the day. Does he know the saw takes mixed gas? Does he care? If he knows and cares, does he know which jug is saw fuel?

Well thats Just the thing. He wanted to know what was so different about these saws compared to the six pack of homelites and poulens he had gone through, trying of all things.. to mill a piece of hardwood that fell in his yard. I said, I have just the thing for you. Before you ask, no, he never got up to running the saw in that position or with that chain.

I understand, but take the saw over for an afternoon.....cut what you need, mill some slabs or whatever. Take the saw back home. Your buddy still got the benefit of trying it out, and it never left your possession.

See this puzzles me.. You seem to share his opinion.. Why should I expect anything to be returned worse for ware then when I lent it? Use sure, abuse, broken? NO! Thats not what I believe friends do to one another.

It is not that I share his opinion. I don't. I just understand how these things turn out, so your much better off either not loaning period, or expecting to get screwed if you do, because something will always go wrong, and the guy responsible won't wanna pay. Obviously, most everyone has a small, select group of people they're willing to trust with their stuff, but thats because the owner knows he can trust the borrower to make it right when something happens. Loaning to anyone outside this group is a crapshoot.

I thought that was a given.. When You come to my house, I don't mention that you shouldn't take a crap on my floor either, I expect you to behave like a good person. Same applies with this Laval of friend. Yes is the neighbor who happens to be a suit wearing guy asks to borrow something from the Snap-On box, he gets the education and speech because he knows nothing about the value of what he has asked for. This is not the case here.. I boasted about this saw when i bought it. He know I was very proud and excited about my insane purchase.

I understand that you shouldn't have to state in plain english "You break it you buy it". But you do. If you assume that all your friends think exactly like you do, you're just setting yourself up for a fall. If you say the words when the saw is being handed to him, there's no question after it breaks.

Agreed. My problem is not the $. As I said in the above post, I will cover the fix. My problem is the mindset. I'm not sure I can consider his sentiment the thought process of someone that I would value.. I want to understand why his thinking is correct, because to me, its incredibly selfish and apathetic.

Your right on the money here. Maybe he will realize he's not being the friend he thinks he is. Maybe he never was, and you're now realizing it.

Here lies the problem. He is strongly saying that nothing was don't to cause this. Yet he was not using the saw. He was not even present when the saw was used. So he has no idea what he day laborer did. He also feels that NOTHING should cause a saw to blow up if its running proper mix. I cannot disagree, but again neither of us have any experience. this is why I brought it here.

The teardown/diagnosis will hopefully answer some questions. It is possible that no one did anything wrong in running the saw. Doesn't seem very likely to me though, with someone untrained, who has no interest in the well being of the saw, running it unsupervised.

I read that there is a risk of kick back. I still cannot figure out how a chain moving in a forward direction can kick upward toward your face, but Hey, I don't want to find out either...

The ninety degree arc from the midpoint/tip of the bar, to the top where the curve straightens is the kickback zone. When you hit something in this area, instead of cutting, it transfers the energy into the upward motion of the bar.

Hope it all works out well for you.

 

[HEAVY FUEL]

I guess I'd better go get my 50 BMG back from the nieghbor kid!!

 

[Jumper]

Generally I would follow the "You borrow it, you break it, you own it" line of thought, except for something obviously on its last legs.

I recall the time a DZ operator needed a car to go to a wedding some 300 miles away and borrowed someones, leaving a POS 15 year old van for the car's owner to drive while his car was away. Sure enough the engine of the 15 year old van died, not from abuse, but old age while "Joe" was borrowing the car, during which time he put 1,000 miles on it. I might add most people would have rented a car for the wedding but Joe's credit cards had been maxed to the limit and then the accounts were closed. When Joe returned and found his van dead, he tried to get the person he had borrowed the car from to purchase another. Needless to say he was told to go the h*ll, and that friendship came to a grinding halt.

Don''t think I would loan a saw to anyone, except someone I knew for a fact was going to treat it well and be pre trained in its use. You can buy a cheapie for about $150 which likely will run just fine and accomplish all that is asked of it for the period of use. Then sell it if you don't need it. Or go rent one at Home Depot.

 

[Bermie]

I borrowed my mate's pole saw, his staff beat his tools pretty hard so I gave it a once over before I used it.
The chain was dull and someone had put two stroke oil in the chain oil tank! I let him know what I found over the phone before I used it.
I cleaned it, sharpened it, used it, cleaned it, sharpened it and returned it with ful tanks and a six pack of Heineken.

If I had not noticed the oil, and used it and something went wrong, THEN I realized, I STILL would fix it because I should know better and its not mine!

 

[Pitt]

Thanks Jumper, DDHLakebound.. Both for your openions and lessons.. its taken a few posts to get the facts out, but you have most of the info. The only thing that I dont think is getting accross is the Level of friend here. I'm not a rich guy, I work hard for what I have. I am not careless with my things not who uses them. I have all but 2 guys I am this close with. I don't mean to go all Sissy on the Chainsaw page, but Let me make it clear.. This guy has been my friend since grade school. After school we went to trade school together for 2 yrs, and drove there together, one of our families would make the other breakfast every day. At that school we dated girls and went out together.. We both worked for his family business. We first called each other when our Dad's past away.. for many years, we had a ritual of sitting on the roof and sharing a bottle and talking about next years plans and reflecting on the past year.. Stuff like that.. This is not my neighbor who by they way, Asks why the blower I lend him makes a "funny noise" and the one I use sounds much deeper.. HAHA> HE AIN'T GETTING THAT ONE..

This is a lifelong active friend, so again having this bee his sentiment is difficult to understand. I would figure that this guy would only mention the break to allow me to know its being fixed. We both make a healthy living and the money is certainly not the issue with this person either.

 

[xxl]

I an not sure what to say about who should pay. This is why people wounder why i do not loan mine to anyone unless i know them

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

It bothers me that you own a tree and only own one saw.

Because you want a real hotsaw, (and doesn't everyone?) you could incorporate the repairs into a nice engine modification. Hopefully the major parts it needs can be picked up used, and while it's apart the mods can be done.

I still am waiting for pictures.

 

[stihltech]

ooops

Another never lend your saw out scenario.

Interesting one today at the shop. Person called, wanted to know price on cutoff saw. They had borrowed a TS350 and lost it (probably stolen).
The price of a TS400 floored them.:jaw drop:

 

[newb]

Bermie your right on with your reply,that seems to be overlooked here. Its not the friend that broke the saw, he borrowed out a borrowed item!! The fact that he doesn't see the problem here tells me what he thinks of the friendship. If its me, friendship over. Also, I have learned, I never borrow out tools from my business. It always seems to turn out wrong. Pete