what equipment to buy?

[mikekane34]

I am planning on bidding on a large (>700 acres) mitigation job that will require mechanical mulching. I do not have any large equipment and would like some advice from any of the more experienced experts out there on what type of equipment to buy. I'm thinking along the lines of a Fecon FTX90 or an ASV with a fecon head. Thanks.

 

[forestryworks]

figure out the costs of rent versus buy

will this large mitigation job cover the costs of buying the equipment?

if it's a one shot deal, in my mind, i'd rent and add rental fees plus $10 or so to cover the maintenance of whatever you rent and be sure to add those costs into your bid

by the way, what part of CO are you in? I worked in Granby county for a bit with willow creek logging

 

[mikekane34]

The job will require a smaller mulcher and a rental of a Fecon FTX140 is about $1500/day. So a smaller FTX90 might be about $1000/day. I figure around 150-175 days of mulching at about 3 acres per day. At this rate, $150-175 in rental fees I could easily purchase the equipment. I am located in southwest CO.

 

[Jacob J.]

Yeah that's a big enough job to justify the actual purchase of the equipment. What about transportation? Have you a goose-neck and Semi tractor larger enough to haul this thing around? Do you have a class-A CDL? Do you know someone who can haul your piece around?

 

[mikekane34]

My thinking right now is that we'll hire an outfit to transport the equipment as it will be on site for 6 months or more. We have an old F-350 but no trailer and don't even know if the 350 would handle the job.

 

[Jacob J.]

My thinking right now is that we'll hire an outfit to transport the equipment as it will be on site for 6 months or more. We have an old F-350 but no trailer and don't even know if the 350 would handle the job.

That'll work fine as long as you'll be on site with no over-the-road moves.

 

[redprospector]

I think you're being a little optomistic at 3 acres a day.
I've got an ASV with a Toma-axe head, and in mountanous terrain there's no way. I have a buddy with a 125 horse Lamtrac with a Tushog head, and everything has to be just right to get 2 acres a day.
There's also a learning curve to running one of these head's without chewing up teeth. I'm right in the middle of that curve, and teeth are expensive.
I'm not trying to throw a wrench in your plan's, but it's better to be informed than wish you were.
There is a lot of potential for these machines, but not quite as much as for people in flatter ground.

Andy

 

[mikekane34]

Andy:

Thanks for the info. Not having run a mulcher before, the three acres is just a guess based on some of the stuff I've read on the net. Perhaps I should use a more conservative number like two acres a day for my bid.

Mike

 

[redprospector]

I don't know what kind of terrain this job has, or the thinning that has been perscribed, but if it's anything like the terrain I've been working on the ASV rig will only average a little over an acre a day. Even with the fecon FTX90 I don't think you'll average 2. I don't know, I'm still trying to figure this stuff out myself.

Andy

 

[Curbside]

As far as production goes it is totally dependant on conditions. The size of material is a major consideration. If your working in 5"-6" diamter material you will not get 3 acres a day maybe an acre probably 1/2 acre. Terrain is a huge issue. Is it flat area or steep. If steep you will get less. Soil conditions are another major issue. Sandy soils will wear down the cutter head quickly. Rocky conditions will blow through teeth like nobodys business and at 65.00 a tooth it doesn't take long to add up. Muddy condtions cause the machine to get stuck and the cutter head to bog down as it fills with mud. If your cutting sapplings in wide open flat area you might get 3 acres a day but if your doing larger material in dense areas a FTX 140 will take some time. Also depends on how fine your grindings have to be chipped. There are a ton of variables. One other thing to make sure you take into consideration when bidding the jobs is fuel. Those machines are pigs on fuel. They work hard and go full out the whole time.

 

[mikekane34]

Thanks for your input. The treatment area goes from roughly 7000 ft. elevation to 8000 ft. Most of the material to be mulched will be 4 inches and less. Hand crews will remove larger material that is required to be cut. A lot of stuff will be cut and then stacked for later buring. The area will likely be dry and not too rocky as it is a ponderosa forest. The overall area is divided into specific sub areas with exact requirements as to what is cut and what is left for wildlife, etc.

How many gallons of fuel do you average in an 8-hour day?

Thanks.

 

[Curbside]

50-60 gallons a day sometimes more

 

[ak4195]

A few years ago i worked as a temp with the local utility ROW shop,they had an Franklin articulating loader with a fecon head(not sure what model),this was a 40k lb machine.
For primary new construction ROW jobs,the Fecon went in first to open things up a bit and make holes for the handfallers to work into,and work to the far end of the ROW or at least downrange.
We'd herringbone some trees working towards the machine,than swap sides,the fecon backtracking and basically doing 95% of the limbing,moving the logs to the edges of the ROW,beavering down the stumps and smaller logs as well.
These machines could spit a 4" log x5' long an easy 100' so keeping distance is important.How long it takes depends on the specs and terrain/tree cover,it takes time even for large machines to beaver down a stump multiply that by perhaps hundreds of stumps.
We probably went through 50-75 gals/6 hr shift.
Up here the forest is primarily mixed birch/spruce,with 2' DBH being large for either species, its possible that we averaged 1 acre/day in 6hrs of actual work,but of course this varied.

ak4195

 

[jrizman]

I am planning on bidding on a large (>700 acres) mitigation job

Ive been trying to make the jump to bigger jobs, almost went for a 10 mile long roadside project that would have been butter (relatively flat) but just didnt workout. saying that, i also would need a newer bigger machine to do these projects that im looking at upgrading too (i usually just stick to small residential so far).

thats a pretty crappy price for the equipment, unless you meant per month. i know i can get what i need for less than that a month, pure rental. I would like to get into a machine as purchase though cause its much less expensive in the long run (if you can keep her busy).

how much are you looking to spend? sounds like you may be working in snow, no? you want wheeled or tracked?

i have gone thru this for about the last year and am still nowhere really. the only tracked machine that i have demoed that was worth a #### in poor traction conditions was the Supertrak (steel single grouser tracks). that thing was a hause, and built on the CAT platform, had the great hydro system and other comforts (in my opinion) that come with a CAT. however, too pricey. The stability of this machine was phenomenal. even better than the rubber tracked regular CAT skidsteers.
I have tried to make numbers work on a few jobs, but this type of work is hard to justify due to it being a purely expense related forestry job, there is essentially no money back if your mulching. however, if you could grind the material, you could recoup costs (till the market is flooded and a major buyer (like Smurfit here) says no more material.).

right now, I am looking into a less manuverable machine in the woods, a wheeled machine with tracks (steel) because the expense is significantly less than anything else (I can get a nice used one with most attachments for less than 50K not including the mulcher head). to accompany it, i am trying to get something together for mulching the materials at a landing for sale as hog fuel or whatnot.

I recently considered a D3 or something similar and with minimal modification could make it a killer woods machine (mulching, cutting, etc.)

sorry for the long post, this is what i spend my office time working on for this coming season...

 

[ASD]

I am planning on bidding on a large (>700 acres) mitigation job that will require mechanical mulching. I do not have any large equipment and would like some advice from any of the more experienced experts out there on what type of equipment to buy. I'm thinking along the lines of a Fecon FTX90 or an ASV with a fecon head. Thanks.

Do not get in over your head 700 acres is a big job to learn on !!! Bid the job do the part of the job you can do with the tools you have and sub out the part you can't to someone that has the right tools and knows how to use them and watch them real close and learn. Then next time you should be able to do the hole thing in house.

 

[Husky137]

How do you go about bidding a job that you have no experience doing?

 

[jrizman]

How do you go about bidding a job that you have no experience doing?

it sounds like he is trying to upgrade, to larger scale, but maybe your right... didnt see it that way till you said that.

Kinda takes away from those of us who have been at this for years and made a career outa it. It would be nice to have the funds to just up and get a machine, At least i what Im getting into and the associated breakdowns that ALWAYS occur!

 

[JohnH]

700 acers you might want to look Hydro Ax or something like that. Can you get away with a rubber tire machine? There cheaper to run,undercarriage get very pricey to fix. After 700 acers there may not be much left on a smaller machine.

 

[Curbside]

ASD is right 700 acres is a very big job and to plan on doing it with a Fecon 90 or a 140 will be pushing it. You may have to look at a company to sub to with some big equipment. A 300 - 500 hp mulcher on tracks can cost close to 500 000.00 even the 200 to 300 hp are in the 250 000 to 300 000 range.

 

[mikekane34]

We have tons of experience doing mitigation just none using mechanical equipment other than chippers of course. We are looking to expand our business and mowing (mulching) is an obvious fit. We are also looking into a joint bid with another company that does have the equipment. This particular bid is very specific in areas that can not be mechanically cut and what can be cut and what can't. I like the idea of a joint venture and paying a lot of attention to the mulching aspect. The bid is specific in that we can only use a small mulcher!

Thanks for all the responses.

Mike