Disaster Cleanup Disaster

[jhgilliland]

In the end of 2005, beginning of 06, my father and myself worked traveled to Katrina, Rita, and Wilma doing disaster cleanup. We did removals that we on homes, corrective pruning, and also some large property cleanups. We ended up at a location in Florida that was a 40 acre condiminuim complex. The owner asked us to save any tree we could. (We righted and staked about 30 trees, and worked to correctively prune about 175 trees, planted 30 3" caliper Live Oak's, and cleaned up about 100 downed trees. Yesterday i got a certified letter that stated we are being sued for $250,000 dollars for improper pruning, and that the ordinance enforcement division had ordered all the trees be cut and new trees replanted. Does this sound typical to you. Many of the trees had nearly ever limb broken somewhere, but we still did our best to cut back to branch collars and to secondary limbs. To make matters worse, due to a hard drive crash, i lost almost all of the 1000 before and after pictures that were taken over this 2 month project. Any advice would be appreciated. Has anyone ever been in a situation like this. Thanks in Advance, James

 

[ktm250rider]

Im not a computer expert but if you still have that drive and havent done anything with it, the pics are probably still there. You just cant get to them. There are companies out there that can retrieve your data. Would be worth looking into.
So much for trying to help out. Hope everything works out for you.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

(snip)To make matters worse, due to a hard drive crash, i lost almost all of the 1000 before and after pictures that were taken over this 2 month project. Any advice would be appreciated. Has anyone ever been in a situation like this. Thanks in Advance, James

Advice: ALWAYS back up all critical computer files. It sounds as if you are seriously screwed, sorry to say. You might hustle your butt back to the scene of your (maybe) crimes and try to get some pictures of the trees you did before they fell 'em all. If you don't have something to show in court, rest assured they will along with a Certified Arborist employed by the local government who will critique the job you did. It won't be pretty.

From briefly eyeballing your past posts, I'm wondering what your tree background is. I saw where you were looking for larger equipment on here at times to do jobs your Dad was getting, but I guess I missed any posts you did concerning your expertise on arboricultural subjects.

 

[jhgilliland]

Thanks for the advice guys. As far as the pics being recoverable, im working on that right now. We i lost them i contacted someone about getting them back (cost is about $2000 which seemed steep. Now that may be a bargain. I do have a few pics from about a year later that could help.

As far as my education in arboriculture, I am finishing a 4 yr landscape contracting degree from Penn State University. All of my arboriculture instructors are ISA certified and im acutally studying for the exam now. I may only be 21, but i have resonable knowledge of proper pruning practices. Reguardless, im not looking to turn this post into a debate of who knows what.

 

[treeseer]

I've closely followed the changing pracitices in post-storm pruning, last month presenting a synthesis of our work on ice-damaged trees with recent guidelines from the University of Florida.

http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/restore.html

http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/powerpoints.html, see "Restoring...

Feel free to post the letter advising you of your liability, and you may get some constructive comments here. Their order to fell and replace may be way out of line, and based on ignorance similar to following the 1/3 rule after storm damage.

Get those pictures. If you hurt the trees by taking too much off, you may have unwittingly been following obsolete and inapplicable rules like the 1/3 rule. The attached was published 3 years ago, but the industry is very slow to change. The Titanic don't turn on a dime.

Certain folks in CA and PA etc are still confused about it, and call for pruning these trees to death.

 

[b1rdman]

How big is the hard drive?

I'm in the computer biz, but more on the software and database side. I can tell you I've had some data recovery done before and it's not cheap. In this case it seems like a small price to pay given the risk.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

To make matters worse, due to a hard drive crash, i lost almost all of the 1000 before and after pictures that were taken over this 2 month project.

Yep. That makes matters worse! Lesson learned, I hope. No matter what business you are in, hard drive backup is NOT a luxury!


Cheap external drives are, well, cheap. My wife and I were looking at at 1 TERABYTE drive just yesterday, for under $300. That's pretty cheap insurance. DVD burners are also cheap, and a lot of important records can be burned onto a DVD and kept in a fire resistant safe.

There is plenty of FREE backup software that does a decent job. Just do a search on FREEWARE BACKUP SOFTWARE and you'll be buried in links. I use THIS ONE. I'm sure there are better ones out there, but this gets the job done.

As for your lost photos, data recovery services ain't cheap, but with a $250,000 lawsuit staring you in the face, you should at least look into it.


Sorry I can't recommend a specific service - I've never needed data back badly enough to spend a grand or three to get it.

Hope it works out for you. You'll certainly need a lawyer. Don't go this alone.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Another part of lessons learned is to get all instructions in writing, if not firm contracts.

Phrases to the effect that you are mitigating risk and crown restoration can be performed at a later date. I've never been in favor of colar cuts in storm cleanup. I'm very minimalistic. Sometimes even to much so for Guy M.

 

[treeseer]

I'm very minimalistic. Sometimes even to much so for Guy M.

Hey I remember us being pretty much in sync on where to make the cuts. Without anything in the literature to guide us we were both kinda shooting in the dark, but those trees are looking pretty good now. Next winter will be time for the 5-year restoration work. Time's flyin eh?

I'm still bugging the clients who are slow to realize the need for restoration work. It will likely be done from a big bucket. Less fun but so much more efficient.

 

[geofore]

contract law

www.lawyers.com to look up a good lawyer.

 

[spike-columbia]

Do you have a contract?

Do you have a contract?

Contract is the first question. If, you do have a contract, hopefully you have a limitation liability limit clause.

If, not get one NOW!

Did you charge the proper amount for your service?

If not, the HOA (homeowners group) could have perpetrated fraud on you!

I'm not giving legal advice but get to an attorney ASAP!

You must make a response.

If it was me, I would tell them "go f yourself" I'm in PA. not FL. they will have to sue you under your state law at your home state.

 

[beelsr]

To make matters worse, due to a hard drive crash, i lost almost all of the 1000 before and after pictures that were taken over this 2 month project. Any advice would be appreciated. Has anyone ever been in a situation like this. Thanks in Advance, James

The pros for HD recovery are on-track in eden prarie, mn. The $2000 price sounds about right - depending on drive size. they can recover data from a drive that's actually crashed. i've had to use them a few times in the apst - expensive but quick and good results.

 

[jhgilliland]

Sorry its been a few days guys, ive been extremely busy with school and work. As far and the pruning cuts, i think i need to make myself clear. When these trees were pruned, cutting back to the color was only done if the brach had broken a few feet outbound of the collar itself. It a 35' limb was broken in the middle and hanging, we tried to cut back to a secondary branch. If none was available we would use a heading cut in order to try and save as much of the tree as possible. We also explained to the owner about the future need for maintenace in order to reestablish the damaged trees into something that would be health and safe in years to come. The owner requested that we save every tree we could, and that is exactly what we did.
As far as a contract, yes and no. We had the owner sign an agreement but it was nothing more than something written out to try and protect ourselves as far as payment and damage to any underground irrigation. Nothing detailed enough to protect us from something like this. (lesson learned)
Im still looking into the hard drive recovery, although this happened quite some time ago and the drive has been reformatted. A lot of people are saying that the pics are probably gone for good.
Anyways, thanks to everyone for their input on the matter. Ill try to keep everyone posted on how this turns out. James

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Im still looking into the hard drive recovery, although this happened quite some time ago and the drive has been reformatted. A lot of people are saying that the pics are probably gone for good.

Let the pros decide that. Don't give up on it based on what somebody's brother in law said!

And get you to the Internet and purchase some kind of backup drive!

 

[treeseer]

We also explained to the owner about the future need for maintenace in order to reestablish the damaged trees into something that would be health and safe in years to come. The owner requested that we save every tree we could, and that is exactly what we did.

please post the city's letter so we can see the best defense. If you want to pm me I may be able to look at the trees cheap because I am in St.Augustine right now and go west on thursday.

 

[beelsr]

Im still looking into the hard drive recovery, although this happened quite some time ago and the drive has been reformatted. A lot of people are saying that the pics are probably gone for good.
Anyways, thanks to everyone for their input on the matter. Ill try to keep everyone posted on how this turns out. James

Reformatting the drive doesnt' erase what was there previously - it just zeros out the "table of contents" for the drive. Any reputable HD recovery outfit will be able to recover stuff that hasn't been overwritten. The longer the drive has been in use, the less chance you have but if the block wasn't overwritten, the old data is still there.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

please post the city's letter so we can see the best defense. If you want to pm me I may be able to look at the trees cheap because I am in St.Augustine right now and go west on thursday.

MY uninformed feeling is that they saw heading cuts and saw it as topping.

I too would like to see the comunications from the city.

Have any of the trees in question been removed yet?

 

[jhgilliland]

Well i apreciate the offer Treeseer. However the location is in Ft Lauderdale/Sunrise area and that is quite some way from St. Augustine. I will be heading south to take a look as soon we get a lawyer arranged. I dont have a letter from the city, just a letter from the gentleman we worked for. He requested we pay the total (220,000) or forward the bill to our liability insureance.
Im not sure yet if the trees are still there or not. I feel that they are because i have a copy from a company in Lauderdale for the removal and replacement of the trees.(not an invoice for the work) As mentioned before i will try to keep everyone up-to-date on the situation and i may be interested in having someone go take pictures of the trees for me.
If you are in the local Lauderdale area let me know, but im probably not going to do anyhting until i find a good lawyer (anyone in that area let me know if you are aware of any good lawyers interested in this type of case. If i get a copy of the city's letter, ill be sure to post it. Thanks Again, James

 

[Sprig]

I know nothing of US law but my gut tells me once you find a decent lawyer be looking for an immediate counter-suit for defamation and lost time, court costs, filing fees etc etc.. Make a point of getting any pics you can of what is left, but then again, if the person suing you removes the still standing trees isn't that tampering with evidence? A sane judge would be chucking that out of court pretty quick but who is to say. Sit down with your pop and all who were involved and get your recollections down on paper in as much detail as remembered, I am also thinking/guessing that there are probably many pictures out there of the origional state of affairs previous to your work, likely taken by the residents themselves, a bit of neighborhood canvassing my be in order too, ya never know. Have statements prepared about your decisions on how you cut the trees based on facts, put into terms a retard can understand, same with why what was removed was removed and so forth. If you know other people in the biz get some statements from them to, th more the merrier imho. It seems obvious to me this 'person/persons' are figuring on some quick 'n' easy insurance cash thingy and trying to pressure you into admitting fault as well, 'nother gut feeling is fight the buggers tooth and nail, bring it to them first too. Load yer guns mate before you see the ships on da horizon!

Kk I go now..............do keep us updated on this one, kinda facinating in a 'glad its not me man!' sortta way, probably typical human morbid curiousity, dunno..... Best of luck to you and yours!

 

[Fireaxman]

Treeseer, didn't you have an article printed somewhere to the effect of "Give Me Mitigation, or Give Me Death"? Sometimes you have to do something that you ordinarily would not do to try to save 60 or a hundred years of growth. There might be an argument in that which would make sense to a court.