Alaskan mill

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

Sorry, my bad in description, didn't mean smoothness of cut, no problems with that. Just meant smoothness/easiness of overall milling process, whether you need to keep stopping to re-tension, etc. I've been quite satisfied with my results with the hardnose and 880, just like Bob says, you have to learn just the right amount of tensioning for a hardnose. You can get away with a hardnose more easily on an 880, as it has all the power in the world, as long as you tension correctly which I hadn't learned. But I'd still keep an eye out for a roller tip bar.

 

[SeMoTony]

Gotchya so I'm thinking I'm gonna go with the granberg 48" mill. I have done a bit of research and from my info it seems that the 661 shouldn't be used with anything bigger then 48" and that's already pushing the limits. I want this saw to last me a while for the tree business as well as free-time milling, so anything bigger then 48" for chainsaw milling should be double power head milled which I dont see myself milling anything bigger then 48". Hell that's a sheet of plywood Haha. But since I'm getting into the tree business how big of a bar could I put on the 661 for just falling a tree cuz that's way less torque needy

For perspective on "recommended" and do-able. That is ms-460 mufmodded and max-flo filter, with a 42" bar slabbing 37" wide Ash. Skip square chisel chain has better cut & chip clearance IMHO. Beyond the size listed but worked well for those thirteen slices after five slices thru 39" día white oak. I got into habit of using the bar side that is oiled by the powerhead inside the groove.
Avatar shows same PH with 60" cannon bar same type chain.
My 046 runs a loop on an 18" bar faster thru logs than the 661 runs a loop on a 50" bar thru a 42"+ log. The 661 will last because I listen to the tune the saw is singing while we are cutting together. If she grumps, I slow down till she's singing Happy tunes again. It's a balancing act between the load and power available in my experience.
I've got up to 72" bars. The longer end of the spectrum are " just in case" like the five footer used on the stump. Underneath the Alaskan in the avatar a 72" bar wood have gotten a remarkable slice from the remaining stump. Regretted not having one enough to get one even though that stump was grinder chips when I found it.
Enjoy milling safely Folks

 

[BobL]

My 046 runs a loop on an 18" bar faster thru logs than the 661 runs a loop on a 50" bar thru a 42"+ log.

This is to be expected - the 046 has 1/3rd HP per inch available to is whereas the 661 has less than a 1/5HP per inch.
Even my 441 in a 21" cut has more HP/in than my 880 in a 42" cut.

 

[SeMoTony]

This is to be expected - the 046 has 1/3rd HP per inch available to is whereas the 661 has less than a 1/5HP per inch.
Even my 441 in a 21" cut has more HP/in than my 880 in a 42" cut.

Hi BobL! The point I tried to make is the proper feed for the combination of powerhead and chain. The 661 is much better cutter with the same bar & chain that I was using in the Ash with the 460.The only change was the hole drilled in the sprocket center to gain 2" more reach. Around the corner (@3 miles) a red oak blowdown has my interest because of the roots are vertical while the trunk is over a fence that lessens my interest. Friday will be a day to stop and ask.
Mill safely Folks

 

[BobL]

Tony - I'd like to like your above post but your photo is hiding the like button ?

 

[Husky Man]

Tony - I'd like to like your above post but your photo is hiding the like button ?

That's interesting Bob, I have never seen that before, it worked for me


Doug

 

[BobL]

That's interesting Bob, I have never seen that before, it worked for me

I restarted the browser and that fixed it.

 

[Diy mechanic mike]

So the company was out of the 56" mills but had the 60". so i figured 25 bucks more for the 60", why not probably wont get into anything that size for quite some time but hey why not have the option for the future. So I had a question about the muffler mod, How is this done and what bonuses does this have? And any negative effect on saw in any way?
Thanks mike

 

[BobL]

So the company was out of the 56" mills but had the 60". so i figured 25 bucks more for the 60", why not probably wont get into anything that size for quite some time but hey why not have the option for the future. So I had a question about the muffler mod, How is this done and what bonuses does this have? And any negative effect on saw in any way?
Thanks mike

A muffler mod can be as extensive as boring/porting out of the exhaust ports in the cylinder, or as minor as opening up the exhaust outlet. A full race port is not recommended for milling saws as they are only intended to be used is relatively short bursts. There is a mild or "woods" port that works really for milling probably best left to those that know what they are doing. Do a search for "woods port". A muffler replacement or a mod that opens up the muffler more than stock can also be beneficial. In either case a rejetting of the main jet may be required to obtain the correct tuning for milling may not be possible.

The benefits of a muffler mod is the saw runs cooler, a bit more power (don't hold your breath on the amount), and the negative is it uses more fuel.

On my 880 I just changed the size of the outlet on the outside of the muffler.
Full details here https://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/880-muffler-mod-question.88748/#post-1467236

 

[Diy mechanic mike]

Gotchya yeah I'm not 100% on the mechanics of saws, as I havnt had to crack one open yet.... now for vehicle engines, unfortunately I have had to crack a few of those open and have learned alot since my first crack open and I have now moved from little 4cylinder engines to big v8 engines maintenance so I have learned alot and I'm still ready to learn more but my saw is brand new so not going threw it like that, maybe once I have made my money back with it a few times I'll think about tampering with mods but til then she's running stock while my warranty is still active...

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

Gotchya yeah I'm not 100% on the mechanics of saws, as I havnt had to crack one open yet....

I've gotten deeper into chainsaw engines as my collection has grown, but for a long time I never got deeper than replacing carbs. Similar to you, I've done a fair bit with car engines to the point of successfully second guessing what a number of mechanics have tried to tell me. (I broke a timing chain on a 454 once, had a mechanic put a new one 0n, it ran horrendous, and he tried to tell me it needed a full valve job. I limped it home, popped off the valve cover, and found it had bent and broken pushrods. Replaced them myself in about a half hour. When I went on a big block forum to try to get someone to explain how pushrods could get bent and broken by a timing chain break on a non-interference engine, I just irritated a bunch of pros who couldn't explain it and tried to explain to me the workings of interference engines even though mine wasn't one.) I've combed these threads a lot for info on maintenance, mods, and how to mill better, and BobL has had some of the most solid information I've seen. Particularly as I've been running an 880, I usually defer to his experience on that. I haven't seen any need for more power out of mine, though I've seen guys who swear you have to run an 8 tooth sprocket or do this or that mod to raise the revs on an 880 to make it more like a 661. I have the luxury of having gotten back a couple of old 045/056 Super 87cc Stihls to play with if I want to mod something (though they're also big torque low rev saws like the 880) but seems to me the 880's domain is BIG trees and I like its enormous torque and lower revs just fine for that, and the chip throwing of .404 chain. On smaller hardwoods I'm liking my 87cc and 3/8 chain a lot more now, which Bob suggested to me early on to me would likely be where the 661 outshined the 880. I guess I'm just running a lower powered version of the 880 torque and rev-wise with the Supers, not the performance of a 661, but lets me run 3/8" chain without switching anything out. I could get Logosol's lo pro spur to run lo pro chain on one of them which would be good to have as an option, which you might think about for your 661 for sub-30" logs. Less invasive than any engine mod and good performance returns in smaller hardwood. I like Bob's muffler mod a lot simply to get exhaust going away from you while milling, but I don't quite have the ambition to do it on mine at least not yet. My 880 is too new for me to want to mess with much like you say about your 661, and even if it runs conservative compared to what it maybe could, for the slow and steady endurance test of milling I think that suits me just fine.

 

[Diy mechanic mike]

Yeah I hear you on the mechanical issues they are never fun and even less fun taking them to someone else even tho it sounds great. Cuz you really never know what they are doing and the only way to get it done right is to do it your self and just make the best of it even tho it always sucks Haha. Best way to look at doing your own mechanic work is your tool set gets broader with every issue you fix so next time that issue happens your ready freddy to get it back on the road or w.e it does haha.

Now the sprocket sizes, pitch size, and different chains is all uncharted territory for me lol. I just dabbled into sharpening old chains to different angles and testing out but not noticing a huge differance haha. I just make sure it cuts in a timely manner. I got a timberline Sharpener that hooks onto the bar and you rotate chain threw it and sharpen each tooth with a carbine bit that turns like a pencil sharpener. It also has different angles to sharpen the teeth at; 25°,30°,and 35°. It works really great and fast but like all sharpeners it takes time to get the hang of it but I have to say this sharpener is my personal favorite for presicion and speed weather your sitting on a log, the ground, a table, or have saw in a vice it works great. But yeah I'm gonna have to look into the different chain stuff a little deeper to understand it all better. Btw what's the best place to purchase ripping chains for milling? Gonna need one soon once my mill comes in the mail.

 

[Husky Man]

Hi Mike, you have come to a good site to learn more about saws, I had cut firewood for over 40 years and didn't know anything about pitch, gauge or different chain types, just always got whatever was stock for the saws whenever replacing chains or bars.

the tooth count on a sprocket is somewhat analogous to gear ratio in an automotive rear end, in that a Higher tooth count will give a faster chain speed, but with less torque similar to a Lower Ratio Gearing increases a cars speed, but lowers torque. the pitch relates to the length of the links, your sprockets and sprocket nose bars will be pitch sensitive, but most sprockets are not Gauge specific, but the bar itself will be. Gauge refers to the width of the guide groove on the bar, and the corresponding drive teeth on the chain links. A smaller gauge chain would fit into a larger gauge bar groove, but it would be sloppy side to side and would result in the saw not cutting plumb.

I'm glad to hear you like the Timberline Sharpener, I have two of them, but I haven't had the time to really get used to using them, but the chains that I have sharpened with them so far, have cut extremely well, I was very happy with the edge it gave.

You will find a lot of Friendly people here(Just stay away from the Pol/Rel forums ) who are Happy to help each other out with problems, and sharing knowledge


Doug

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

Btw what's the best place to purchase ripping chains for milling? Gonna need one soon once my mill comes in the mail.

Bailey's is always good but their Woodland Pro ripping chain doesn't come in skip tooth. I buy a lot from Frawley's Saw Shop online who have great prices (out of Iowa I think) but again the Oregon ripping chain all seems to be full comp not skip. I had wondered looking around a bit recently for 3/8 skip tooth ripping chain why I didn't see much and it seems like hardly anyone makes it, just a couple of people seem to make it in .404. Some folks just buy ordinary 30 degree skip tooth and regrind it to 10 degrees for ripping right out of the box. I'd want skip for your biggest bar cuts with a 661 but otherwise I think regular ripping chain would be fine. Fresh out of the box I'm not sure I saw much of a difference on my 880 between an Oregon hyper skip chain (only comes in .404) and a full complement chain on 15-28" wide hardwood slabs. I really like the look of that Timberline sharpener, but it can't do 10 degree ripping chain angles seems to be the only problem. I've been frustrated without a vise to hold the bar trying to get any good results out of my Granberg bar mounted sharpener. I have a vise now so hopefully it will get better. (I haven't been getting enough pressure against the underside of the tooth holding the file with one hand and the bar with the other, and have often been pushing downward more into the gullet, doing nothing to sharpen the tooth.) I took my ripping chain to a Stihl dealer to sharpen and he cut it at 30 degrees and I was furious, especially when his wife wasn't customer friendly about the mistake, but when I went back to pick it up the second time and he was there he was friendly and thanked me for schooling him on something he didn't know, because in 22 years of business or so he'd never had a ripping chain come through his shop. So the lack of choices in ripping chains compared to regular chains are mostly to do with them being such a small niche market.

 

[Diy mechanic mike]

Doug from your sprocket ratio explanation it seems the gearing is exactly like a dirt bike... I just got a 1 tooth smaller then stock for front and two teeth smaller in back for my crf250l. the most torque/high end speed gear ratio is what I went for so I got best of both worlds. So that being understood from that aspect "for me", is there a specific sweet spot on the gear ratio chart for each saw like this ratio was for my enduro?

And thanks for the pitch explanation, I pretty much do exactly what you said you did just get the stock recommended replacement. Lol. But I guess if I thought more about it like i am now i could get more cutting specific pitches. One thing I have noticed that i think is pitch related is the wood carving bars, I'm guessing those have a very small pitch since the bar tip is so pointed so the chain can flex easier around that edgie bar tip.

And yeah the timberline sharpener is great I love it. It's basically like sharpening 100 pencils and your chain is factory sharp or sharper. You just have to make sure you dont get greedy with this sharpener and tighten it to tight and take too much metal off when sharpening or your losing chain resharpening life. trust me found this out the first few chains I used it on Haha, only got like 4 or 5 resharpens and my teeth were wore down from taking so much off each resharpen.

And yeah this site has been extremely helpful, first found it when I was trying to find parts for my old asplundh whisper chipper and now I'm in milling forums and others as well. it's like "crack"!!!! But healthier.

 

[Diy mechanic mike]

George, great info on the milling chains. So the skip chain and non slip chain, what's the pros and cons to each of those? I'm sure they both have their own advantage for something.

And see you cant ever get anything done the way you want it done taking it to somebody else Haha. But it's always a nice thought of not having to deal with it til you get it and it's not how you wanted it and then you got more time waiting... that is why I always try to do things my self no matter how spread thin I get... just have to prioritize which irons need took out of stove and which ones need put back in to keep everything afloat lol.

But yeah I wonder if timberline has thought to make a sharpener for ripping chains? Would be another money maker part for them..... and thanks for the info on where to order ripping chains.

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

Smoother finish to the cut with full comp, more drag on the saw because more teeth engaged, worse chip ejection. Here's a good breakdown from Madsen's for conventional cross cutting. http://www.madsens1.com/bnc_sequence.htm When milling, chip ejection becomes everything on big slabs because most of the bar is in constant contact with the wood. You'll have noticed with any cutting edge, if the teeth get filled with debris, they can't cut properly anymore. You find this drilling wood, you find this doing a really deep cut with a long jigsaw blade, anything. So space between the teeth like in full skip allows the chips to be carried out without clogging the teeth. For Lucas Mills and super long .404 bars like my GB 72", Oregon came up with hyper skip. It spaces a cutting pair of teeth every 9", giving you an enormous amount of room to carry chips out between the teeth on ultra wide slabs. Also requires less saw power. The unfortunate thing about that to me is that they don't make it in 3/8" chain, where it seems like it would be really helpful in expanding the capabilities of a 661 or smaller saws in allowing them to tackle huge slabs, and also improve chip ejection on 3/8 chain, which isn't nearly as good as .404 chain in big slabs. But all this doesn't matter too much to you, because your only choice out of the box ready to go really is full comp in 3/8 ripping chain. There are a variety of guys here including SeMoTony who advocate using square chisel chain, which Stihl makes in skip tooth as 33RSLF as a cross cutting chain, though it's not something I have any experience of nor do I know what angles they file/grind it at. Here again is Madsen's breakdown on it. http://www.madsens1.com/bnc_chisel_qna.htm Until you really develop your skills in all things chainsaw - and I feel the same holds true for me - I'd stick to the standard offerings and not get carried away trying to mod too much of anything at first. I didn't study up enough on filing down rakers, a chain stopped cutting at all the other day and sharpening didn't seem to help, and I knew a lot of people talked about filing the rakers as well as the teeth to keep the gap between them right , and I got carried away and took the rakers WAY down without thinking what that would do. Turned the saw into a jerky kickback nightmare and ruined a perfectly good ripping chain.

 

[Leeroy]

I'd take that ripping chain and file it to 5 degrees or even less and try it.

 

[Leeroy]

Oregon makes a semi skip that I have used for a long time cross cutting, but knew it would make a great milling chain,
and it does. Only running a 24" Granberg, so can't say how it would do on wider cuts.

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

Oregon makes a semi skip that I have used for a long time cross cutting, but knew it would make a great milling chain,
and it does. Only running a 24" Granberg, so can't say how it would do on wider cuts.

Are you using it as is, or filing it back to 5 or 10 degrees first? I'm thinking that I may start getting cross cut chains and turning them into ripping chains. There's just too little variety offered in stock ripping chains. I will at some point file that ruined chain back to where the rakers aren't too hopelessly low but it will require taking an enormous amount off of each tooth to do so because of just how far I took down the rakers. Will have to use an electric chainsaw grinder sharpener rather than a file. It's not a big priority though because it was for my 36" Duromatic .404 hardnose and I don't plan to use that much more for milling and am going to get a .404 42" roller tip bar for my MS880.