2 Ways to give Arboriculture a Black Eye

[M.D. Vaden]

One reply in the Recreational Climbing forum, prompted me to start this topic, because a lot more people read these forums than tree workers. I've met homeowners who have read these forums for years. They both learn and select professionals from here.

1. Working illegally without required license, bond and insurance - according to the requirements of each area.

At least in Oregon, when people get in trouble for working illegally, it does nothing to serve the advancement of the arborist profession here. It makes the profession as a whole, seem worth a bit less, and it raises the license fees for responsible arborists because of enforcement issues. On the public relations end, it's bad because so often the illegals are making the news more often than the good arborists doing daily good deeds.

2. Climbing Recreationally without required permits.

Within the past 1/2 year, more than one tree worker has been posting about recreational climbs in Rockefeller Forest area, on a couple of forums. Photos, videos and commentary. Promoting illigitimate climbing, again, is one more way to lessen the arborist profession as a whole.

Both #1 and #2 are irresponsible acts that tend to give arboriculture a black eye, especially if the individuals or companies are advertising being professionals. If they are Certified, such habits transform certification into dirt.

It's not that some folks don't have the skills to do that stuff, but where, when, and how it pops it's head up, may be a little bit like what "Happens in Vegas Stays in Vegas".

 

[Slvrmple72]

Good post M.D.!

 

[mckeetree]

Excellent post.

 

[treeseer]

So mario, what damage has been done to Mr. Rockefeller's forests by these illigitimit climbers? I don't think any of my 4 certs has the slightest speck of soil from that. Cert is imo compromised far worse by pontificators who lack practical experience, and unqualified risk assessors covering their dumb butts by recommending removal because they don't understand much else..

Before you flip into denial mode re TreeCo's observation, note that you refer twice to climbers as "tree workers", as if these persons were distinct from and somehow lesser than 'arborists". As a CTW and a BCMA I'm offended doubly by that. :censored: It looks to me like an arborist who does not care to climb is hampered just as badly as a climber who does not care to learn about biology.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

So mario, what damage has been done to Mr. Rockefeller's forests by these illigitimit climbers? I don't think any of my 4 certs has the slightest speck of soil from that. Cert is imo compromised far worse by pontificators who lack practical experience, and unqualified risk assessors covering their dumb butts by recommending removal because they don't understand much else..

Before you flip into denial mode re TreeCo's observation, note that you refer twice to climbers as "tree workers",

Why don't you answer the question ?? Do you have a conflict of interest on this one?

One climber I'm referring to, lists himself as "Certified". That seems like a poor side-by-side display when the certification is within visual reach of questionable activities. There is even a bigger difference between sneaking around climbing ninja style hushed, versus openly advertising that fact while simultaneously promoting oneself as a professional.

I don't agree.

I don't think what rec climbers do has any reflection on arboriculture or on Certified Arborist.

I'm thinking a large part of what bothers you about the rec climbers is related to the fact that you are not a climber.

A large part is maybe that you don't understand what a World Heritage site is - also, most recreational climbers don't have proper training to know what they should or should not disrupt in the largest and tallest of protected forests.

Considering that other climbers from research, to arboriculture to recreation take issue with illigitimate climbing, do you have anything else that is relevant to responsible conduct in the forest?

 

[Labman]

Are unlicensed people more prone to topping butchery?

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Unless they are doing damage to the trees in question I don't see a problem. I consider it a non violent expression of their love of trees...and their disdain for stuffed shirt rule makers!

So is your complaint that they are hurting the trees?

...or that they are just breaking the rules?

Was I supposed to explain what a Stop sign means? The meaning of a Don't Enter Sign? Maybe what two solid lines in the middle of the road mean?

As I wrote, they likely don't have the training to recognize what they may potentially affect. For the rest of your statement, it sounds like you are saying that if people know how to do something, they don't need to follow the laws and rules.

It's completly realistic, that a recreational climber could ignorantly waltz their way into a canopy, and damage a trap or device for scientific research that they did not see. And in doing so, could put an experiment or study months behind schedule, just from the selfish desire to climb where they have no permission to be.

Since I've read posts elsewhere about a recreational climber spotting what they thought were scientific research equipment within a short distance, this kind of accidental vandalism is very possible.

Would like to reiterate something from the first post at top:

"What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas"

Illegal climbing really has no place in the protected redwoods. But if an arborist is going to succumb to a climb, then it may be best to keep it in Vegas.

Are unlicensed people more prone to topping butchery?

The question is not really on topic, since this opened with requirements for specific areas. I could give you an answer for my specific area of Portland, but I think any licensed - especially Certified - arborists in this city need not be told the answer to your question. If you don't know the answer for your specific area, it's probably best to keep a track record locally for a few years.

 

[Ekka]

Since I've read posts elsewhere about a recreational climber spotting what they thought were scientific research equipment within a short distance, this kind of accidental vandalism is very possible.

LOL, so is an asteroid hitting you in the head! (possible but not probable)

Hysteria and hype, making mountains out of molehills.

You've been grinding the stone on this rec climbers in the Redwoods a lot since you waltzed in and started selling pictures right? Maybe they're getting a better view than a land lubber arborist can?

Perhaps the scientist need to sign out there equipment so everyone knows where it is?

Perhaps areas need to be allocated for it.

Perhaps there's other solutions MARIO besides being a stick in the mud.

 

[treeseer]

One climber I'm referring to, lists himself as "Certified". That seems like a poor side-by-side display when the certification is within visual reach of questionable activities. There is even a bigger difference between sneaking around climbing ninja style hushed, versus openly advertising that fact while simultaneously promoting oneself as a professional.

OK Mario so next time if the guy wore another shirt would that be okay?

A large part is maybe that you don't understand what a World Heritage site is - also, most recreational climbers don't have proper training to know what they should or should not disrupt in the largest and tallest of protected forests.

Well maybe you could explain this in advance. If a small area is part of a study then it should be marked off, or individual trees labelled so rec climbers could go elsewhere.

How big is this site?

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Unless they are doing damage to the trees in question I don't see a problem.

In some micro-ecosystems entry alone can cause damage. Often times they are prone to compaction, or rope setting can disturb canopy environments.

Most rec climbers are "hey, big tree, let's climb it" mosses and such get disturbed at best.

There should be areas where no one should go. Where only knowledgeable people should enter for management of invasives and system health assessment. I'm of the same mind about ATV's, bikes and even hiking in some areas.

 

[jomoco]

In some micro-ecosystems entry alone can cause damage. Often times they are prone to compaction, or rope setting can disturb canopy environments.

Most rec climbers are "hey, big tree, let's climb it" mosses and such get disturbed at best.

There should be areas where no one should go. Where only knowledgeable people should enter for management of invasives and system health assessment. I'm of the same mind about ATV's, bikes and even hiking in some areas.

So tell me JPS, how many decades worth of damage was caused by arborists, certified or not, everytime they set their climbing lines and worked a tree prior to the cambium saver being developed in the 90's?

That's a mighty high horse you're talking down on folks from.

jomoco

 

[M.D. Vaden]

The simplicity of professionalism and legal - yes means yes, right means right, stop means stop. The ease of it removes arguing. Simplicity has done all the work.

opcorn:

Ekka supplied questions. But the redwood forest is the land of what is, no the land of what if.

JP Sanborn chimes in with something productive, building on the subject.

There are simply two sides.

One side seems to argue for illegality in the same way someone might argue for legalizing prostitution. And the other side is not really arguing as much as just laying out the facts or boundaries.

Treeseer ... wherever you leave home base of tree knowledge and rules and regs, and go to shirt color questions, we're not even in the same arena of topic.

jomoco ... noticed that you hinted at trying to point at other people or points in history as the standard. Suggestion - the boundaries of the playing field avoid penalties.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

That's a mighty high horse you're talking down on folks from.

jomoco

There is a great difference between an old growth stand and a 70 year old euc or oak in a residential setting. You get into these ancient old growth trees and they are micro-obligate ecosystems unto themselves. Mosses and epiphytes plants animals...

This is the hew and cry for the rainforest, and a very good reason for leaving our few remant forests alone.

Let's look at the small trees for a second. The oldest known tree is in a National Forest in CA, nicknamed Methuselah. The exact location is kept secret, to avoid people disturbing it and the other very old trees around it.

August 15, 2003 - Washington, D.C. - A seedling grown from what is believed to be the world's oldest living tree is about to find a new home at the U.S. Botanic Garden in Washington, DC. For some 4,700 years, a bristlecone pine called “Methuselah” has lived in a California forest. Its location is kept secret, for fear of vandalism and soil erosion from foot traffic. But with permission from the U.S. Forest Service, which manages the forest where Methuselah is found, the Champion Tree Project and the National Tree Trust grew a seedling of Methuselah that is being donated to the Botanic Garden.

Should anyone be able to go in and touch these trees, just because they are there?

There are other exceptional trees people can climb, some ought to be restricted, just as one would get detained for climbing a national monument.

I would even be for confiscation of equipment used in the offense. it is simple trespass, if you trespass on my property i should be able to confiscate your vehicle.

 

[capetrees]

If someone is climbing in an area off limits, its against the law. Certified or not doesn't matter. People that look for arborists and such don't look in here to find them. They look in the phone book or newspaper. And how this hurts the industry is made up. How does it hurt the industry? What it hurts is the small guy trying to start a company on his own amongst a group of people that are maybe casting a shadow on him. the big companies don't care what the little guys are doing and their "industry" is fine. All this industry destruction talk is just crap.

 

[jomoco]

The simplicity of professionalism and legal - yes means yes, right means right, stop means stop. The ease of it removes arguing. Simplicity has done all the work.

opcorn:

Ekka strolls in with nothing to add but questions. Sorry Ekka, the redwood forest it the land of what is, no the land of what if.

JP Sanborn chimes in with something actually productive, building on the subject.

There are simply two sides.

One side tries to argue for illegality in the same way someone might argue for legalizing prostitution. And the other side is not even arguing, but merely laying out the facts.

Treeseer's ... wherever you leave home base of tree knowledge and rules and regs, and go to shirt color questions, we're not even in the same arena of topic.

jomoco ... noticed that instead of taking a stance where laws and rules are the standard, that you hinted at trying to point at other people or points in history at the standard.

Suggestion - watch where the boundaries of the playin field are to avoid instant disqualification.

I just object to hypocrits on high horses lecturing on disturbing the moss on a tree when he used to punch holes in the tree itself to treat it "professionally".

I've got bigtime beefs with the ISA, the new NAA and the current modern mess that is the tree industry in the US, so you guys shouldn't feel like I'm picking on you, I got beefs with the entire friggin industry.

The biggest black eye we have today is our dirt cheap labor standards driving our noble profession into ruin. It's depressing and disheartening to the extent that I've advised both my sons to pursue other professions, because the tree industry is declining into a low wage loser.

The second most dangerous industry in the US, takes on a new light when you compare the average wage of a crab fisherman to the average wage of a treeworker.

How many more groundmen will get chipped alive before this industry gets it's act together enough to ensure it's not my son or daughter?

jomoco

 

[tree MDS]

Some first rate stodgy old bickering going on here today boys! opcorn:

I really want spring to get here already, lol.

 

[(WLL)]

I just object to hypocrits on high horses lecturing on disturbing the moss on a tree when he used to punch holes in the tree itself to treat it "professionally".

I've got bigtime beefs with the ISA, the new NAA and the current modern mess that is the tree industry in the US, so you guys shouldn't feel like I'm picking on you, I got beefs with the entire friggin industry.

The biggest black eye we have today is our dirt cheap labor standards driving our noble profession into ruin. It's depressing and disheartening to the extent that I've advised both my sons to pursue other professions, because the tree industry is declining into a low wage loser.

The second most dangerous industry in the US, takes on a new light when you compare the average wage of a crab fisherman to the average wage of a treeworker.

How many more groundmen will get chipped alive before this industry gets it's act together enough to ensure it's not my son or daughter?

jomoco

i gotta agree with the above postid rather take a couple black eyes than watch and feel the affx of our profession being driven into ruin by the cheap anti American no citizenship immigrants and our greedy big corp. CEO's. GIVE EM HELL & RUN EM OUT!!

 

[John464]

The second most dangerous industry in the US, takes on a new light when you compare the average wage of a crab fisherman to the average wage of a treeworker.

Us employers are stuck too. All other industries are raising their prices. Our prices have had to drop. One tree 15 years ago I could of worked on for $1500, now I have to work on two trees on the property just like to get that same kinda money. We are able to do it faster than we did 15yrs ago since we use bucket trucks and grapples and bigger chippers, but still. We should be getting more money, not less, for this high risk work than we do.

Inflation rises and tree care deflates as more competitioon enters doing sub standard work with no insurance or proper safety training. Thats what killing our industry, not some guy rec climbing in the tree not charging $, just having fun. I could care less what the rec guy do, they aren't doing any treatment and not charging it does not have any effect on tree care operations who are doing it to provide a livelihood.

Rub all the moss you want, make sure to give the tree a reach a round, you may find something that turns you on. Friggin huggers now complaining about merely touching trees, give me a break!

 

[tree MDS]

Soil compaction issues

Yeah I hear you on the moss rubbing john 464, tried to rep you for that whole post, but it says I gotta spread some around.

Another thing to consider however is soil compaction issues and potential damage to buttress roots if one of them dirty hippies falls from that high!!

Is petulie oil a potential hazard to the forest ecosystem??

 

[M.D. Vaden]

... Another thing to consider however is soil compaction issues and potential damage to buttress roots if one of them dirty hippies falls from that high!!

Is petulie oil a potential hazard to the forest ecosystem??

Did you ever see the crying tree hugger video at Youtube? Your reply about the oil or aroma reminded me of one video response to that one ...

Youtube Video Response to Crying Tree Hippie Types

Fairly amusing.

opcorn:

The biggest black eye we have today is our dirt cheap labor standards driving our noble profession into ruin.

Could have named the topic "3 ways" then ...