A better explanation...

Arborist Forum

Help Support Arborist Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
22,790
Reaction score
32,100
Location
On the Cedar in Northeast Iowa
I posted this in another thread where it didn't really belong, so I'm starting this new thread with it...

(Thank the EPA for promoting clean, efficient stoves.)

Clean… yes.
Efficient… not so much.

Going from an old smoke dragon last year to an EPA certified (non-cat) firebox this year, I’ve noticed as temperatures drop so does the efficiency. During warmer periods this EPA box uses far less wood than the old box, but during colder periods it uses at least as much, if not more wood than the old box… and when it gets down-right arctic out it definitely uses more wood, a lot more! Overall, my total wood consumption hasn’t really changed… but we’re not as warm inside during extreme cold. And, the longer the cold weather lasts the worse the disparity gets.

Now some of y’all have argued that my problem is a bad install, or bad draft, or my modifications, or I’m using a firebox too small, or whatever. But none of that made any sense to me; the firebox is damn close to the same size as the old smoke dragon, and installed/modified in the same fashion… there just had to be more to it than that. I’ve experimented and tried dozens of things to improve performance, the best result has been to leave the intake air wide open and control the fire with a flue damper… better, but far from perfect. I’ve contended that the EPA design was simply a poor design, and in some ways I still think that… but the real problem is the EPA and how they require testing.

The EPA requires testing to be done under conditions they believe would result in the highest emissions rate (i.e. warmish weather) using a 15 foot stack height (measured from the floor the stove is sitting on). And the stove must perform, without the fire going out, while remaining within regulations, at minimum draft setting using dimensional lumber rather than cordwood. Well, that’s far from “real world” for many of us… my firebox is in the basement, resulting in an overall chimney height approaching 40 feet. What happens is, as the temperatures drop and the wind increases, the “heating efficiency” of my EPA box falls below that of the old smoke dragon… yet, because of design, the “combustion efficiency” remains. In other words, compared to the old smoke dragon much more of my heat is exiting the flue, which explains the excessive coaling and why the flue damper works best for me. Simply, the EPA regulations are all about combustion efficiency (emissions)… they have nothing to do with heating efficiency. In reality, in my home, during extreme cold, an old smoke dragon will use less wood and be a far more efficient “heater”… and yes, produce more emissions. During warmer weather the EPA box would be a better choice, but that ain’t when I need the heat the most.

Now, y’all can argue with me if ya’ want… but I’ve studied this at length. The other day I came across this article written in the 2006 WETT newsletter that not only confirmed what I was suspecting… but does a darn good job of explaining it. He calls it the “Florida Bungalow Syndrome"…

Florida Bungalow Syndrome

…and it also explains very well why some of us have problems similar to mine, while others of us don’t. Basically, the closer conditions are to test conditions the better these EPA stoves will work, but as conditions move away from test conditions the worse they will work… and the degradation in performance ain’t linear. If my fire box was sitting on the main floor of a single story, ranch-style home, in a slightly less cold and windy area of the country I’d likely be singing its praises… but living where I do, in the type home I do, I’ll never get close to the performance I need when January rolls around. It-is-what-it-is… it’s all about having the correct tool for the task at hand.
 
Now, y’all can argue with me if ya’ want… but I’ve studied this at length. The other day I came across this article written in the 2006 WETT newsletter that not only confirmed what I was suspecting… but does a darn good job of explaining it. He calls it the “Florida Bungalow Syndrome"…

I just checked out WETT's website. Whoa! (didn't see nothin' about Florida Bungalow.) Was I in the wrong place?
 
Same here the efficiency term the govts use that inturn the furnace makers use as a reference is vague at best. I compared a psg 4000 & 4500 to the max caddy , and the older 4000 series is more efficient on heat and wood consumption. Having an EPA certified sticker does not mean that it's efficient at saving wood and giving heat as well. In most cases te EPA sticker is a low air pollution worthyness incentive. It doesn't cover the other two requirements.

One furnace that impressed me is the blazeking Princess.
 
I will echo your comments. This fall I bought a Napoleon EPI22 Insert. Not a stand alone stove such as you have but I think we're in the same boat. I have also noticed the excessive coaling. If I managed to keep up on the ashes, essentially cleaning it out every morning before loading it up again, it wasn't too bad. That's a PITA though. I thought maybe putting in a grate to let air in underneath would help but with the small firebox size, there was room for about 2 splits and that was about it. I pulled the fire brick out of the bottom and tried with the grate. No appreciable difference. If anything, it was a bigger pain to clean the ashes out.

When I first tried the stove this past fall, I thought it was going to be awesome. I half-filled it an lit it off and I was super impressed the heat that it was putting out. Mind you it was 40+ degrees at that time outside. Now that winter is really here, I'm less than impressed. It keeps the house luke-warm at best. On a good day it's 68 degrees inside. Not terrible but I can't imagine the wife putting up with that for another winter.
 
I just checked out WETT's website. Whoa! (didn't see nothin' about Florida Bungalow.) Was I in the wrong place?

I don't know if that article is on their website, it was in their 2006 newsletter (according to the link I supplied)... if you click the link I supplied you can read it.
I'm not a WETT member so I have no access to the "stuff" on their website.

Oh! That link is from...
Gulland Associates Inc. - Hearth Products Training, Consulting and Publishing
Here is a link to the "Home Page"...

http://www.gulland.ca/
 
Last edited:
oppermancjo,
One thing I did that increased the rate of heat transfer to the air around mine was to remove all the firebrick from the sides and back.
But... BUT! I must caution you, I have a forced air plenum built around mine that pulls heat away at a faster rate... which I believe keeps it from over-heating and warping the firebox.
 
I will echo your comments. This fall I bought a Napoleon EPI22 Insert. Not a stand alone stove such as you have but I think we're in the same boat. I have also noticed the excessive coaling. If I managed to keep up on the ashes, essentially cleaning it out every morning before loading it up again, it wasn't too bad. That's a PITA though. I thought maybe putting in a grate to let air in underneath would help but with the small firebox size, there was room for about 2 splits and that was about it. I pulled the fire brick out of the bottom and tried with the grate. No appreciable difference. If anything, it was a bigger pain to clean the ashes out.

When I first tried the stove this past fall, I thought it was going to be awesome. I half-filled it an lit it off and I was super impressed the heat that it was putting out. Mind you it was 40+ degrees at that time outside. Now that winter is really here, I'm less than impressed. It keeps the house luke-warm at best. On a good day it's 68 degrees inside. Not terrible but I can't imagine the wife putting up with that for another winter.

Hi. To my knowledge fireplace inserts give little to no heat. I have seen people mod their inserts with larger plenums which do work but you basically destroy the fireplace and convert what's left into a chimney.
 
My findings are the opposite. I was burning a VC Defiant pre EPA last year and now I am burning an Englander NC30 through the same chimney. Both stoves have massive fuel capacity and both heat my house just fine but the 30 is more efficient, much more user friendly and keeps the house warmer on the COLD nights. No more coaling than the VC. I load on a bed of coals raked forward and in minutes cut the air all the way off and walk away with cruising temps of 6-700 for hours.

I am not burning or heating from the basement so that may be the issue but I know a ton of people with EPA stoves that are having great success with tall(30-40') chimneys and heat from their basement. Most run with a pipe/flu damper in conjunction with their stove intake control to slow the massive draft a tall chimney creates but can still cut the air off or near off at the stove.

I will say the EPA stoves are more wood finicky so under 20%MC is near manditory for optimal performance making wood storage and issue but even old school technology runs better, much better, with 20% or less MC. They just are able to handle high MC giving the illusion that 2+yr seasoned wood is not necessary.

What stove are you running? What stove were you running? What is the MC of your wood? How hot is your stove running? Are you getting secondary burn? I will speculate that a load of under 20% MC oak would burn great in your set up and give off a ton of heat with the air cut back on the stove control.
 
What stove are you running? What stove were you running? What is the MC of your wood? How hot is your stove running? Are you getting secondary burn? I will speculate that a load of under 20% MC oak would burn great in your set up and give off a ton of heat with the air cut back on the stove control.

Well Bushbow, I've been through all those question ad nauseam here on AS... but I'll do it one more time.

The stove I'm running now is a Pacific Energy Spectrum... rated at 72,000 BTU, 82.6% efficiency and recommended for spaces up to 2000 square feet.

The old smoke dragon (brand unknown) was a plain welded steel box with a hole in the back wall for the flue pipe (no firebrick ever) and air intake under a cast grate.

The MC of my firewood? I don't mess with gadgets like moisture meters... but the oak I've been burning was cut, split and stacked in single rows, in open sunshine and wind, well over two years ago. Much of it had been dead for some time before I cut it. It's been stacked in the basement close to the stove all winter. The MC ain't gonna' get any lower...

How hot is the stove running? Again, no gadgets (like stove thermometers) here, but I don't believe I can make it run hotter than wide-friggin'-open (that includes flue damper)... and yes, I get a firestorm of secondary burn.

And for your information... I wouldn't place a bet on your "speculation" if I were you, 'cause I'd take your money!
 
Last edited:
...I know a ton of people with EPA stoves that are having great success with tall (30-40') chimneys and heat from their basement.

Really? Just how many is a "ton"? And how many of them are heating their entire house 100% with these "basement" EPA stoves?
(And yes, when I say 100% that is what I mean, 100%... I haven't turned my gas furnace on in over two years.)
 
My epa stove was the same, 30 ft chimney . I would have run away high temps, had all I could do to control them. Then massive amounts of coals in the morning. I had many phone conversations with the manufacturer. He told me to do almost everything the manual said not to do. Helped a little but still a huge pain. I now have a furnace, all the issue's are gone. I did notice the other night tho, that when the furnace is cruising on secondary burn, (air shut on primary, only overfire air) That is when the baro damper was working. I could hear and see the air being pulled from the basement , that would otherwise be pulling from the furnace causing it to burn out of it's control. Maybe epa stoves with long chimneys need a baro. Spidey, you could prove this easily. You should need one on your new furnace anyway, try it on your stove.
 
DEL, I agree you are losing heat up the chimney. ( that is what make up air vent is for, air only leaks in basement) But you are controlling the burn as to not over heat, (which also sends more heat up chimney) also allowing more draft to pull thru the stove at the end of the cycle burning up the coals. No one wants to get up a few hours early to walk down to the basement and open all the dampers. Then go back to bed. My old EPA stove, country woods by american energy. Service rep had me install a key damper on the flue, and the combustion air inlet. Even with both closed all the way, and the stove slide closed. If I loaded it up with wood, stove temp would get to 900* about 4 hrs. then when wood fibers where to go to coal, no heat at all, unless you reversed everything that was done. That is no way to heat. Ergo, no more stove. Hello furnace. SO MUCH BETTER>
 
Spider you are already using the second option, a key damper, and it is said to work very well to solve the Florida bungalow Syndrome.
The article you linked to does not cover the problem that you are having with your install. If it did, then your key damper would have solved the problem.
The article does not support your conclusion that your old smoke dragon is more efficent than your EPA Pacific Energy.

Well I believe that article exactly describes my problems during cold weather... i.e. short burn times (or heating times). What I experience is a fast burning fire that leads to a lot of coals, and then the heat from those coals is sucked out the chimney before it can be transferred into my home. The article says that flue dampers work, it does not say they "work very well to solve the Florida bungalow Syndrome". It goes on to talk about the effectiveness relative to the actual chimney, and finishes with, "Flue pipe key dampers are a throwback to earlier and less appealing forms of wood heating and in an ideal world they would be relegated to the history books. And then later, "None of the optional solutions is without drawbacks. The result is that whatever option the dealer or installer chooses, he or she could be open to criticism."

None of those options are cures... they are simply band-aids. They do not treat the disease... they treat the symptoms. And besides, every one overrides the stove's intended operational design.
I've already said the flue damper has been the most effective for me... better, but not great.
And it don't take a rocket scientist to come to the conclusion that (under my conditions, in my home) the old smoke dragon was a more efficient "heater" during extreme cold weather. During warm(er) weather the situation reverses (just as the article eludes to)... it-is-what-it-is Del.
 
Hi. To my knowledge fireplace inserts give little to no heat. I have seen people mod their inserts with larger plenums which do work but you basically destroy the fireplace and convert what's left into a chimney.

Odd?:confused2:
 
Bushbow,
No need to apologize… if my feathers got ruffled that’s all on me, not on you.
This has been an ongoing thing since right around the New Year, when the weather turned cold. All your questions (plus a lot more) have been asked, along with dozens of suggestions… most have been no help, and a few have yielded marginal, but at best temporary results. So I sort’a took that “deep breath” when you posted your questions. It’s all on me, I know you were trying to be helpful and I appreciate it… and I apologize for getting a bit “short” with you.
 
Del,
C’mon man… I titled this thread “A better explanation...
C’mon, really? Here I am admitting that my particular setup and conditions are likely contributing to the problem… but I’m also a realist and won’t ignore that stove design (due to EPA testing procedures) also contributes. You on the other hand are completely unable to see this objectively. You refuse to admit there may be a problem with the EPA design under certain conditions… even when there is plausible evidence staring you directly in the face. You are dead set on the fact that it’s all on me… the EPA just can’t be wrong, or make any mistakes… C’mon! Seriously man… I ain’t the one being bull-headed here.

Del, if, as you say, I am, “loosing large amounts of heat up the open passages into the single flue to which your woodstove is also connected”… it’s the same amount heat that was being lost when the old smoke dragon was installed to the very same flue in the very same way. That ain’t any sort of argument. If I’m loosing heat now, I was loosing heat then, and the old smoke dragon made more than enough heat to offset that… something the new stove is unable to accomplish. All you’ve done is strengthen my position.

I guess, rather than ignore the facts I’ll just ignore you… that is, until you’ve walked a mile or two in my shoes. Let me know when you're willing to look at this in an objective way... until then, you are no help at all.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top