alky

[slowsuki]

would there be any advanages or disadvanages to runing alky in chainsaw with moded muffler ,and what basic steps to mod a carb for alky. know some people that are making there own. thought i might try it out.

 

[timberwolf]

Some of what I have learned so far....

Ethanol 95%, not worth the trouble

Metanol,
burns twice as much at least
eats carb parts
hard to tune, much more so than gas
does not like cold weather
does not like warm weather
making a carb work for methanol meens it will no longer work for gas
Costs much more
Absorbs water from the air
limited gains without higher compression or nitro
a lot of fule and gas is wasted flushing the saw
oil is difficult to mix in, some wont and most others separate out in short order
methanol use leads to nitro use

only application is racing.

 

[Dennis Cahoon]

Some of what I have learned so far....

Ethanol 95%, not worth the trouble

Metanol,
burns twice as much at least
eats carb parts
hard to tune, much more so than gas
does not like cold weather
does not like warm weather
making a carb work for methanol meens it will no longer work for gas
Costs much more
Absorbs water from the air
limited gains without higher compression or nitro
a lot of fule and gas is wasted flushing the saw
oil is difficult to mix in, some wont and most others separate out in short order
methanol use leads to nitro use

only application is racing.

_________________________________________________________________
Here's my thoughts about these comments......the last statement is true.

Unless you're racing don't even think about running alcohol/methanol.

Yes...you need 47% more alcohol compared to gas.

Eats carb parts?.....only if you don't flush out the alcohol.

Much harder to tune?....No way!....If you're carb's drilled properly, the saw is as easy as a gas carb to tune.

Weather will make anything act weird. Hot weather(rich), cold weather(lean), humidity,(weird).

Making a carb work for alcohol/methanol it will not work on gas? No Way! I have carbs that work on both. If you've over drilled for nitro...then probably so.

Costs much more?....Why? drill a gas carb and it won't cost a dime more.

Absorbs water....yes, alcohol absorbs water.

Limited gains without higher compression or nitro?...a slow saw is a slow saw!

Yes...flushing wastes gas.

Oil is difficult to mix?...some will not mix at all...otherwise shake often!

Alcohol/Methanol leads to nitro....maybe....but if you're set-up good on Alkie, you won't change until someone starts kicking your a$$.

 

[slowsuki]

thanks for all the info. sounds like no go. more problums than its worth unless your racing.

 

[timberwolf]

Got that right!

What I ment to say is alcohol is more expensive than gas.

And if you have a carb set up right for alcohol it could not have the right fuel curve for gas, sure you could make it run, but would it be right?

And olny burning 47% more fuel????, are you testing me here? just trying to find out what i know or don't know, I am sure you know that 1 lb of gas needs something like 14.7 lb of air to burn in an ideal situation, in saw reality it is more like 11-12 lb of air. This because gas likes to be 20% rich to produce MEP and account for unburnt fuel.

At ~9:1 for ethanol that likes to be more than 20% rich your going to need close to 1.5 lb to burn/use the same amount of air as 1 lb of gas

At ~6:1 for meth your going to need 2.3 times and more to account for the fact that methanol likes to be 40% rich to make MEP. But that does add up to about a 47% increase in jet diamiter.

Now add nitro that brings additional oxygen into the picture and you need well more than 2.5 times the amount of fuel.

As far as carb tuning, your right, it is no harder to turn the screws, but a lot harder to turn them to the right place day to day as enviromental conditions change.

 

[Dennis Cahoon]

Got that right!

What I ment to say is alcohol is more expensive than gas.

And if you have a carb set up right for alcohol it could not have the right fuel curve for gas, sure you could make it run, but would it be right?

And olny burning 47% more fuel????, are you testing me here? just trying to find out what i know or don't know, I am sure you know that 1 lb of gas needs something like 14.7 lb of air to burn in an ideal situation, in saw reality it is more like 11-12 lb of air. This because gas likes to be 20% rich to produce MEP and account for unburnt fuel.

At ~9:1 for ethanol that likes to be more than 20% rich your going to need close to 1.5 lb to burn/use the same amount of air as 1 lb of gas

At ~6:1 for meth your going to need 2.3 times and more to account for the fact that methanol likes to be 40% rich to make MEP. But that does add up to about a 47% increase in jet diamiter.

Now add nitro that brings additional oxygen into the picture and you need well more than 2.5 times the amount of fuel.

As far as carb tuning, your right, it is no harder to turn the screws, but a lot harder to turn them to the right place day to day as enviromental conditions change.

Just gave you my thoughts, like I said. I don't care what you know or don't know. But, I do have saws that run very well on Alkie to prove the things I said.

 

[timberwolf]

I know you have these saws and I know there fast, but where you say 47% more fuel, thats where it could steer wrong anyone reading this and trying to figgure things out on their own. Leaving them running the saw way too lean. Just don't want to see it happen to anyone or their saw.

 

[Dennis Cahoon]

I know you have these saws and I know there fast, but where you say 47% more fuel, thats where it could steer wrong anyone reading this and trying to figgure things out on their own. Leaving them running the saw way too lean. Just don't want to see it happen to anyone or their saw.

Hahahaha!....That's not steering anybody wrong!

 

[timberwolf]

Here is what I am going on, seems to be univerally scientifically supported.

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/z-image/fig2-2.jpg

To express it as a ratio Methanol at 6.45:1 divided by Gas at 15:1 (this varries some I have also hear 14.6 or 14.7:1 depending on formula) = 2.32.

So by weight 2.32 times more metanol is burned to a given weight of gas. Note that this is for ideal stoichiometric combustion, in reality it will burn a bit more fuel per unit of air.

Methanol is denser than gas so by volume the ratio is a bit different, .745 divided by .796 = .9359 x 2.32 = 2.17. So by fuel volume 2.17 CCs, liters or gal methanol will be required instaed of 1 unit for gas.

Dennis, not discounting your 47%, it may work for you, but I know with my saws I needs much more fuel. Anyone new dabbling into alky should check the math first it takes a lot of methanol and it is not just that easy to get it to pump through the carb, more than just screwing the HS jet out a couple turns.

 

[Mr.]

I know you have these saws and I know there fast, but where you say 47% more fuel, thats where it could steer wrong anyone reading this and trying to figgure things out on their own. Leaving them running the saw way too lean. Just don't want to see it happen to anyone or their saw.

Dennis could you please email me everything you have forgot about alcohol. I am interested in writing a book.

You use alot of the stuff it costs more money to buy. Go back to the tech and leave the chest thumping to Tarzan.

Don't convert a saw you like first start with a 30 something cc Poulan. You'll cry less.

My first I started with 20% nitro and almost seized her in less than thirty seconds. It was my favorite saw. Now it's not fast enough, go figure.

Fred

 

[Mr.]

BTW I just filled up the tank when necessary and didn't check the odometer.:bang: :bang: :bang: