Any Tailgate Lawyers Will To Give An Opinion?

[Grace Tree]

As I've posted here before, I'm in the process of buying tracked lift for my own use but I'd also like to make it available to other tree services with tough access problems or bad climbers. I won't use the term "rent" because my insurance carrier won't cover me and doesn't carry rental policies. I'd already planned on being with the lift at job site because;
1. I want to be proactive about avoiding problems.
2. I know how rental equipment gets abused.
My lawyer says that unless I'm in full control (in the bucket) then it could still be considered a rental. My thoughts are that it would be similar to the service a contract climber provides.
Any thoughts?
Phil

 

[Pelorus]

Tailgate lawyering is fun! You want to be proactive, not preemptive. Otherwise, other tree companies will think you are planning to nuke them.
Also, subcontracting to other tree companies isn't renting, imo. An equipment Rent-All doesn't provide an operator, whereas you + your equipment are being hired.

 

[Pelorus]

And...........I think you need to quit using the word "rent"
You plan on being a fully insured "subcontractor" providing a service to other contractors.
I don't think your insurance provider and real lawyer will have any issues with that.

 

[Grace Tree]

Tailgate lawyering is fun! You want to be proactive, not preemptive. Otherwise, other tree companies will think you are planning to nuke them.
Also, subcontracting to other tree companies isn't renting, imo. An equipment Rent-All doesn't provide an operator, whereas you + your equipment are being hired.

I changed it. Same thoughts I had. Maybe he's being overly cautious which isn't bad. I have a meeting with him on Fri. but I wanted to take some experienced views with me.
Thanks,
Phil

 

[Grace Tree]

Rental won't show up anywhere on paper but I was trying to define what I want to do. My insurance guy actually told me he doesn't have a problem with my plan. My lawyer thought that may be all well and good until there's a large claim and then they'll look for the deepest pockets.

 

[squad143]

My lawyer thought that may be all well and good until there's a large claim and then they'll look for the deepest pockets.

Anytime bad stuff happens, everyone gets sued anyways. And then the lawyers get rich.

There is a guy around here that "subs" his services. Uses a Teupen 23GT. He is in the bucket with you. Deevo has used him before. I suggest you PM Devon and get this guys (Peavey Tree) number. He may be able to help you with his experience.

 

[Grace Tree]

Anytime bad stuff happens, everyone gets sued anyways. And then the lawyers get rich.

There is a guy around here that "subs" his services. Uses a Teupen 23GT. He is in the bucket with you. Deevo has used him before. I suggest you PM Devon and get this guys (Peavey Tree) number. He may be able to help you with his experience.

Good advise. He want's me to set up an LLC. I always thought that for someone small they could prove co-mingling of assets and that an LLC wouldn't do much good. He said it will so I'll at least take that step. I have a pic that you sent me of the Hobbs. I stumble on to it on my computer from time to time and think; "boy, that's a nice photo. I'll have to stick it on my website." Then I remember where it came from.
Hope you're doing well,
Phil

 

[treemandan]

As I've posted here before, I'm in the process of buying tracked lift for my own use but I'd also like to make it available to other tree services with tough access problems or bad climbers. I won't use the term "rent" because my insurance carrier won't cover me and doesn't carry rental policies. I'd already planned on being with the lift at job site because;
1. I want to be proactive about avoiding problems.
2. I know how rental equipment gets abused.
My lawyer says that unless I'm in full control (in the bucket) then it could still be considered a rental. My thoughts are that it would be similar to the service a contract climber provides.
Any thoughts?
Phil

Uh, don't let nobody use yer lift dude.

 

[ATH]

...He want's me to set up an LLC. I always thought that for someone small they could prove co-mingling of assets and that an LLC wouldn't do much good....

You can set up an LLC for $125 through the Ohio Secretary of State website. You don't need legal counsel to to do that.

You are right about co-mingling of assets. But it is not complicated. Don't co-mingle - small or big...does not matter. Get an EIN from the IRS and open a bank account with that number, not in your name or with your SSN. Depost all checks into the the business's bank account. Insist that all payments are made out to the LLC, not your name. Pay yourself out of the LLC's own bank account. Make all business purchases out of that account. Change the insurance such that it covers the LLC, not you. Sign contracts as president or owner of the LLC...not as you. An LLC is a legal "person"...just remember that you are you and the president of the LLC is you, but your are not the LLC. If the LLC needs money, and you want to lend the LLC some money, I'd probably write a personal check to the LLC, deposit that to the LLC's account, then make the purchase. Maybe even draw up an IOU from the LLC to yourself.

Let us know when you get the subcontracting thing up and going. How far west do you wanna go to do that?

 

[TreeAce]

You can set up an LLC for $125 through the Ohio Secretary of State website. You don't need legal counsel to to do that.

You are right about co-mingling of assets. But it is not complicated. Don't co-mingle - small or big...does not matter. Get an EIN from the IRS and open a bank account with that number, not in your name or with your SSN. Depost all checks into the the business's bank account. Insist that all payments are made out to the LLC, not your name. Pay yourself out of the LLC's own bank account. Make all business purchases out of that account. Change the insurance such that it covers the LLC, not you. Sign contracts as president or owner of the LLC...not as you. An LLC is a legal "person"...just remember that you are you and the president of the LLC is you, but your are not the LLC. If the LLC needs money, and you want to lend the LLC some money, I'd probably write a personal check to the LLC, deposit that to the LLC's account, then make the purchase. Maybe even draw up an IOU from the LLC to yourself.

Let us know when you get the subcontracting thing up and going. How far west do you wanna go to do that?

I have been told by a handful of people that having an LLC drawn up by any other method than a qualified attorney is foolish. If a lawsuit comes there will be to many uncrossed Ts and undotted Is. Which could result in someone getting your personal assets. Of the people I asked two of them were lawyers so I took what they said with a grain of salt. But when some other folks with accounting experience and also hands on small business experience telling me the same thing I decided to go that way and has my LLC drawn by a lawyer. Maybe it was a waste of money, idk. I hope I never find out. Another possible reason to form a LLC or some type of incorporation is so you can lease the machine to yourself. Something like that anyway. Ask your lawyer about it.

 

[ATH]

Lawyers drew up this document for the State. You can certainly pay another one to fill it out for you...but there is not something else that a lawyer will file with the State - this is it.

For a S-Corp, C-Corp, Partnership, etc... yeah, you need legal advise to set that up successfully in addition to the filing with the State.

 

[TreeGuyHR]

I made my business an LLC, everything said here seems about right. I didn't use a lawyer, but when I applied for professional liability insurance (to cover consulting opinions), there were a whole bunch of questions my agent read to me that included:

Are your contracts approved by a lawyer? (In house or outside?) (I guess they figure contracts signed outside might get all smudged in the rain:msp_biggrin

Are all contracts in writing and signed by both parties? (a lot of mine never get signed and returned at all, but i do the job anyway)

Are reports sent by registered mail, or with a request that written replies are received that state the report has been received and read? No

Are all contracts with subcontractors also in writing, signed, approved? haven't used one yet. Handshake with my crane sub, and he has billed me with the largest bills and obviously brings in a lot of risk (70 ton cranes are mighty big!)

It only matters when things go wrong, I guess.

Even with some yes and no answers (obviously, a fib would mean your claim would be circling the drain) I got the policy!!

Oh yea, another $1,900 added to my overhead for 1 mil coverage. Better not say a tree is just fine if leaning over a 2 mil house...

 

[Grace Tree]

Good advise all around. I think I'm already in good shape in regards to keeping my assets separated. I did look into setting up a LLC a few years ago and I agree that it's something that I could to. My lawyer wants $500 and I think I'll just let him do it. There's so much going on with whole effort I feel like my brain's in a blender. ATH, initially I like to stay within an area I 71 east and north of Brookpark Rd. I have a small mailing ready to go. Around 50 tree services in that area. I'm not familiar with most of them but it's just an initial effort.
Thanks for the advise,
Phil

 

[mckeetree]

Uh, don't let nobody use yer lift dude.

Good advice.

 

[mckeetree]

Even better advice. Folks are always asking for advice on this forum about how to dodge things like legal cost and liability. There is no good way to that.

 

[TreeGuyHR]

Even better advice. Folks are always asking for advice on this forum about how to dodge things like legal cost and liability. There is no good way to that.

Sure their is -- just get lucky and stay lucky!:msp_biggrin:

But if you have your doubts, CYA. :msp_rolleyes:

 

[Grouchy old man]

I'd already planned on being with the lift at job site... My lawyer says that unless I'm in full control (in the bucket) then it could still be considered a rental.

In my opinion your lawyer is correct. You want to be a sub-contractor- you transport the lift to the job, you are in the bucket cutting, you pack it up and take it away. Nobody touches it but you.

 

[Grace Tree]

In my opinion your lawyer is correct. You want to be a sub-contractor- you transport the lift to the job, you are in the bucket cutting, you pack it up and take it away. Nobody touches it but you.

That's what I'd prefer and the way I'd like to set it up. We'll see what happens.
Phil

 

[mckeetree]

Sure their is -- just get lucky and stay lucky!:msp_biggrin:

But if you have your doubts, CYA. :msp_rolleyes:

Well, yeah. I have been in this business 35 years. The last 26 of it for me. I have never been able to stay lucky.