Arbo-Theory

[pdqdl]

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sad thing is most guys dont know they`re running illegal with that 500 gallon tank on their flatbed dump.......better have a tanker endorsement, depending on what chemical & the RQ ya might need or should have for arguement sake a hazmat endorsement along with MSDS papers, hazmat response guide, spill kit, gallon meter ticket(s) & meter must have state seal from weights & measures applied on it with inspection date!!! also applicators license, hypersensitivity list & BU# displayed on truck!
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LXT...............

DOT only requires hazmat for fuel quantities over 105-110 gallons. I forget the exact number of gallons; it used to be 120.

No hazmat response goodies required for DOT-legal transportation of a water based tank mix, unless it happens to specify something in the product label. Your state may have "applicator-specific" rules that require the MSDS, but not in Missouri.

MSDS not required with load or applicator, but the product label must be physically present, at least according to Mo. Dept of Agriculture. This is probably one of those rules that varies quite a bit from state to state.

Does your state really require all that other crap? I can assure you that Missouri does not. All you need is your applicators license, the proper safety equipment, the product label, and your customer application record. Yes, you do need to have an applicators certificate posted on the truck where everybody can see it.

 

[mattfr12]

newsaw, I havent really paid attention to that side of the trade........I know that the Bartlett Arborist rep will try & sell HO`s on unnecessary work, Imagine that they would do the same in the PHC/Fert. side to?

Davey is a different story around here........the Gibsonia office outside Pittsburgh does most of their residential applications & Im telling ya they`re cheap!! however thats the lawn division, not sure about the tree/shrub section!

sad thing is most guys dont know they`re running illegal with that 500 gallon tank on their flatbed dump.......better have a tanker endorsement, depending on what chemical & the RQ ya might need or should have for arguement sake a hazmat endorsement along with MSDS papers, hazmat response guide, spill kit, gallon meter ticket(s) & meter must have state seal from weights & measures applied on it with inspection date!!! also applicators license, hypersensitivity list & BU# displayed on truck!

these are some of the reasons I never got into it, even alot of the bigger companies dont comply.....but thats on the driver if they get caught...........I have both OH & PA licenses from Dept of Ag, OH is a much nicer state to operate in than PA!!!!

Just be careful & know the law & the Label............after all the label is the law!




LXT...............

i just have a shrub and shade tree license with a class A and tanker endorsement. i haul a lot of my logs on trailers anymore easier to maintain. the crane truck pulls a 22k eager beaver air brake trailer with 6 foot sides on it. fill that and the truck up got a pretty good load.

i don't get into using a lot of the nasty chemicals the most potent and only one we use that requires a license is harpoon.

 

[mattfr12]

Thanks Bomber, that is sort of what I was looking for is success stories in regards to applications that worked.

Matt, I would be running a rig like yours, just a 1 ton flatbed with a skid mount unit.

Matt and LXT have you had a look at some of the spray contracts from large companies and the like lately? I've looked at similar companies' contracts around here and was struck by the number of applications. In some instances they were prescribing treatment for pests that the hosts did not get. Or multiple applications of the same broad spectrum pesticide that is rated to last a year. And on the fert side it's nitrogen, followed by inhibitors, a sort cats to get the mice, dogs to get the cats, bears to get the dogs thing. My hope is this is not as rampant as it appears. The companies whose bids I've looked at do very well. Can one be successful with a program that is a little more honest and less inclined to spray and charge because the customer doesn't know any better?

When i worked for those guys I saw a lot of things that where sold that where way over the top. truthfully the C A title helped them do that. i think thats why we do so good now is we actually sell work that people need. plus we spank the dog crap out of their prices.

davey just spent a little less than 20 days on an oak tree here in town that was bid at 12,500 i think theirs still some wood in the back yard they left their.

i was in awww i still have a hard time believing it. i wouldn't have charged 4 grand for it. i wish i had pictures it was big but it was not one for the record book or anything special. about 5 hours of picking and it would have been over for it.

on the way back into town i would stop with my guys in the truck and watch them for a while and have never seen a tree crew work at a pace that makes a turtle look like a rocket ship.

 

[lxt]

DOT only requires hazmat for fuel quantities over 105-110 gallons. I forget the exact number of gallons; it used to be 120.

No hazmat response goodies required for DOT-legal transportation of a water based tank mix, unless it happens to specify something in the product label. Your state may have "applicator-specific" rules that require the MSDS, but not in Missouri.

MSDS not required with load or applicator, but the product label must be physically present, at least according to Mo. Dept of Agriculture. This is probably one of those rules that varies quite a bit from state to state.

Does your state really require all that other crap? I can assure you that Missouri does not. All you need is your applicators license, the proper safety equipment, the product label, and your customer application record. Yes, you do need to have an applicators certificate posted on the truck where everybody can see it.

DOT...........Requires Hazmat on alot more than just fuel, It requires the endorsement & "PLACARDS" for any product that poses a risk to health, safety & property during transportation..............water base doesnt mean anything, you put concentrate of picloram, tordon, garlon, etc... in there & its a hazmat load!!! even dry bulk carrying fert. granules is a hazmat load!! The tank capacity for the tank endorse. might be a dispute, but......driver was pulled over the other day locally for hauling 2-55 gal barrells of #2 diesel fuel in a pick up truck..........For: no placards, endorsement, spill kit, etc... & that was a Home owner in need of heating fuel, commercial drivers get it twice as hard!!!

However I would imagine that the product must meet the RQ definition & that is found in the hazmat response book which must be carried by the driver in the truck at all times during transport & if you are hauling additional products: gas, carb cleaner, WD-40, diesel fuel, etc... that if mixed with the laden hauled product creates a greater hazard............you better have an MSDS form............hell I need MSDS form for just saw gas & common carried products such as carb cleaner/WD-40.

So....Technically, YES you need all I mentioned, there was a problem in one of our counties not long ago regarding pumps for gas stations & since that problem weights & measures have been on the prowl for any delivery or sale of a product to the consumer by way of pump & nozzle delivery: propane delivery, heating fuel delivery, water for well delivery & even reverse for sewage cleanouts, etc... thats why you get a ticket from the meter on any of these transport vehicles & that meter device is subject to state inspection...............however the price must be based on unit of measure sold/received, so if you`re spraying & charging by the sq.ft or acre you`ll be fine............but dont let gallons show up on your receipt!!!!


Im the guy that if I didnt have one thing would get pulled over, red tagged & fined to the point I would need to sell my house........................so I dont mess with it on a commercial level, to many legalities.


LXT...................

 

[pdqdl]

I think your local DOT enforcement is way over the top.

Hazmat placards and DOT involvement only become a factor when any product fulfills certain criteria. It must be "transported", rather than just being used, and the placard requirement for any product is ALWAYS coupled to a volume or weight requirement. For example, there is absolutely no hazmat requirement for a 5 gallon can of gas on a landscapers truck. The same is true for a one gallon container of methylene bromide, or some other nasty restricted use pesticide. Change that into a pallet load being transported to the warehouse, and the rules DO change.

In that fashion also, a tank mix of dilute Tordon 22k, ready to spray on a customers property DOES NOT require a placard, whether it be 3 gallons in a backpack sprayer, or 1000 gallons in the back of a Chemlawn truck. 1000 gallons of concentrated Tordon 22K in the back of a delivery truck...probably.

There is no hazmat required for anything I put in the tank, not in Missouri. I can guarantee that approved fuel tanks are limited to some size smaller than 120 gallons, below which no hazmat endorsement is required to transport. The case you cited for the two barrels probably got involved because 55 gallon barrels are not likely to qualify as safe fuel cells. THEN they become hazmat barrel transportation; or so I would guess.

MSDS I really don't know about. There might be some obscure DOT reg that lets them ask for that stuff, but no DOT unit has EVER asked for that from any of my guys, and we get pulled over all the time. It's so bad in my area, that we routinely go look for them before we leave the shop.

It sounds like you really have some crazy enforcement going on in your area.

 

[lxt]

I think your local DOT enforcement is way over the top.


Hazmat placards and DOT involvement only become a factor when any product fulfills certain criteria. It must be "transported", rather than just being used, and the placard requirement for any product is ALWAYS coupled to a volume or weight requirement. For example, there is absolutely no hazmat requirement for a 5 gallon can of gas on a landscapers truck. The same is true for a one gallon container of methylene bromide, or some other nasty restricted use pesticide. Change that into a pallet load being transported to the warehouse, and the rules DO change.

In that fashion also, a tank mix of dilute Tordon 22k, ready to spray on a customers property DOES NOT require a placard, whether it be 3 gallons in a backpack sprayer, or 1000 gallons in the back of a Chemlawn truck. 1000 gallons of concentrated Tordon 22K in the back of a delivery truck...probably.

There is no hazmat required for anything I put in the tank, not in Missouri. I can guarantee that approved fuel tanks are limited to some size smaller than 120 gallons, below which no hazmat endorsement is required to transport. The case you cited for the two barrels probably got involved because 55 gallon barrels are not likely to qualify as safe fuel cells. THEN they become hazmat barrel transportation; or so I would guess.

MSDS I really don't know about. There might be some obscure DOT reg that lets them ask for that stuff, but no DOT unit has EVER asked for that from any of my guys, and we get pulled over all the time. It's so bad in my area, that we routinely go look for them before we leave the shop.

It sounds like you really have some crazy enforcement going on in your area.

Over the top? No.............!! maybe in your state what you say is true..........but it sure seems funny that "methyl bromide" & chloropicrin mixtures have a guide # of 55 & a placard # of 1581. same product with different mixtures # 1647 & # 1955 with a guide no. change to 15. methly bromide itself is placarded using # 1062 with an isolation in all directions of 500 ft pertaining to spills of any volume!!!

MSDS is basically a substitution form to show all chemicals, fuels & other being transported in addition to what the bill of laden shows, whether gallons or pounds you must show it...........I have an MSDS form for tree marking paint!!!! (possible explosive & fire hazard) & your FIRE EXTINGUISHER better be fully charged & the proper type!!!

the point & the law is that "ANY" transported product that may cause harm or pose a risk to Health, safety & property must follow the rules I mentioned & prolly more? you wreck your trk & 1,000 gallon tank bursts spilling into the local stream & see if you dont need what was mentioned!

your <120 lbs requiring a placard & such doesnt apply here (PA) you haul 10 gal of gas & 20lbs of fertilizer with 80lbs or 11.42 gals of diesel fuel & you better have an MSDS form & placards for the carried products!!! as a matter of fact using your scenario with fuel & methly bromide you would use 2 placards depicting flammable & poisonous....

Nobody here transports the stuff properly.....& by the book!!!, but when an accident takes place guess whos responsible? just ask the truck driver on the PA turnpike who spilled all that asphalt sealant...........he didnt have a bunch of what I mentioned & now he`s looking at a huge fine....they deemed him personally responsible! Not discounting what you`re saying in your state & trust me if PA was like OH I would give it a try

truth is most of the bigger companies use the law of reciprocity pertaining to applicators licensing & therefore some things are different.......I know Davey does this!!!!




LXT..............

 

[sgreanbeans]

We have a few company's that spray trees here, we remove a lot of them after they have been there! Davey is the worst, I have seen them kill several trees by dumping way to much nitro. We have had a few guys get destroyed in court over issues with farmers, one guy was spraying a herbicide, mixed to strong, wind was blowing and it blew all over this guys crops, he was out of business in a flash. The DOT requirements here are very strict, Just like LXT was saying. Don't think your walking away with a small ticket if you get busted around here! This would be why I have never even considered it, around here anyways.
I am also at a cross road. Have everything pumping along as I rebuild from being called back in, but my body is breaking down faster than I thought it would. Thought I could last a couple more years and have the kid trained to take over the field part, I would jump to just sales and consultations. Don't think I am going to last much longer out there. Today I sent them out and I stayed behind, body is wrecked from this week, cant even get up the will to go out in the shop and sharpen chains or mess with the equipment. Think I am going to start to slowly try and get out. Not away from Arboriculture, but from running my own show, and climbing. Would like to either work for a big show or a municipality/govt deal. The goal would be to have a job like Jeff's. So I hear ya, when you are making a major decision on your main direction, its not a easy thing to do!
I would tell ya that the Spray rig is good and all, but the liabilities and the regs (even tho they are needed) are horrendous, something to think about. Me, I would go with the trucks. Get that side built up then jump on the spray rig stuff ,once your 10ft. tall and bullet proof.

 

[pdqdl]

Over the top? No.............!! maybe in your state what you say is true..........but it sure seems funny that "methyl bromide" & chloropicrin mixtures have a guide # of 55 & a placard # of 1581. same product with different mixtures # 1647 & # 1955 with a guide no. change to 15. methly bromide itself is placarded using # 1062 with an isolation in all directions of 500 ft pertaining to spills of any volume!!!

....

LXT..............

Where do you get the placard numbers from? I would read more, if I knew where.

It sure isn't on the product label, so I know it doesn't fall within the purview of the dept. of Ag.

 

[lxt]

Where do you get the placard numbers from? I would read more, if I knew where.

It sure isn't on the product label, so I know it doesn't fall within the purview of the dept. of Ag.

pdqdl, the placard numbers come from the U.S Dept of Transportation............my understanding is that the product label is for safety, application, mix information, emergency contact, etc...

The product label will not suggest or provide placard info in most cases, it really depends on the "Hazard Class" & this can change depending on what product & quantity of the product is..............so Ive been told!!

In most cases ive been in hauling product for the tree companies the total product transported didnt meet reportable quantity to have the need for some of what I stated, However..........I have been pulled over on DOT check & have been informed that I needed a placard...........was a warning!!! once I started checking into things I found out.....Holy ####, ive been running illegal....! so I just documented everything on the drivers daily log cause the tree companies arent gonna change anything but the driver!!!

Just be safe & atleast know whatya need & if all fails...............atleast have a good excuse!!!!!



LXT...............

 

[Iustinian]

I agree with others here: chemical work has great long-term repeat implications, and it also sets you apart from a lot of other companies that don't know diddly about entymology, botany, etc.

The retailers of the products will pretty much tell you all you need to know about the products and the pests and diseases. Many even have promotional material you can slap your logo and contact info on very easily which really improves your presentation.

In this area, I've seen a lot of success from most of the work we've done -- although the biggest scam I've noticed people doing is treating silver maples for anthracnose -- by fall injection of fungisol, and then deep root fertilizing "to help overcome the stresses associated with the disease" rotfl. Haven't seen a silver maple die from anthracnose yet.

I've only had one complaint -- from a neighbor of my customer: "OMG! you're spraying chemicals into the air!!!! what will happen to my plants if it lands on them?!?!?!?" They won't get rhizospheara? lol. "You're going to get cancer from those chemicals!"

Had the most positive response from injections: fruit eliminators, pesticides, and iron/manganese injections. Seen good results from cambistat, and also oak wilt and tobakkia treatments as well.

If I had to choose between a grapple truck and a bucket, I'd pick the grapple truck, but I consider myself a competent climber. Trimming/removals can be done in the winter, most chemical work cannot, at least in this area. Something else to think about. You advertise for plant health care, and you'll be getting just as many calls for trims/removals IMO. I'm not convinced it would be the other way around.

Most common treatments in this area btw are for apple scab on crabapples, rhizospheara on spruces, iron deficiencies in river birch and pin oaks, pine wilt nematode on scotch and austrian pines, spider mites, and japanese beetles. And a lot of deep root fertilizations, many with merit for moderate insect control.

 

[newsawtooth]

I've only had one complaint -- from a neighbor of my customer: "OMG! you're spraying chemicals into the air!!!! what will happen to my plants if it lands on them?!?!?!?" They won't get rhizospheara? lol. "You're going to get cancer from those chemicals!"

Thanks Iustinian, good post. There is a lot of misinformation out there regarding pesticides. It's a funny business and likely none of us would be here without it. We would have died from starvation or malaria or been driven mad by bed bugs. Though the last incident could still happen because we've lost DDT. There are fundamental misunderstandings concerning pesticide applications. Even organic produce is often treated with pesticides, permethrin or pyrethroids are often applied. But they're organic because permethrin occurs naturally in chrysanthemums. Even the synthetics are allowed because they are copying a natural substance. But it is still considered organic so people feel better about buying shiny apples from Whole Foods. Sweet Jehovah, nicotine of all things is a powerful pesticide that we can't even use anymore! But folks get wound up when a neighbor sprays a chemical on their lawn, when in fact we're all eating, smoking or drinking them everyday.

I'm with you on the grapple truck too. Climbing really isn't that big of a deal. It certainly is not the slowest part of my operation. Cutting and hauling giant cottonwood or silver maple rounds is what slows my day down.

Thanks for your input, gang.