Ok, that's probably as good as answer as any, thanks for your help. I am a rookie at this arborist stuff and it is really just a hobby, but I enjoy it and it is good exercise, I just do easy stuff that I really can't damage anything on my own property and my friends property but I rig alot of stuff down anyway just for the practice. Also try to be very safe no matter how long it takes, that's the advantage I have, no boss because I ain't get paid for it anyway.!! Also the first time I ever used a forum, so far it's pretty cool, thanks for your help.