trialanderror
ArboristSite Operative
yah, i used c10, and turned the temp high to make sure i had good penetration. welded from both sides to be failsafe. i think my welds look ugly, but, as long as it doesn't leak. 35 wire in a millermatic 210
Building my own OWB - the lowdown
- Thread starter trialanderror
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yah, i used c10, and turned the temp high to make sure i had good penetration. welded from both sides to be failsafe. i think my welds look ugly, but, as long as it doesn't leak. 35 wire in a millermatic 210
Great to see you got the pictures up .
Keep them coming .
Keep them coming .
trialanderror
ArboristSite Operative
almost a 500k btu unit. So, by encasing fully with water and insulating it, i think i should end up with quite a good boiler. it's got a damper that you can push/pull to open flame rollout, so either it's a straight shot, or make it so it zig-zags from the back, to the front, then to the back and out the chimeny.
trialanderror
ArboristSite Operative
did some mroe calling around and found a place that would cut my 9" wide round 8ft insulation peices with a 3" hole on center for the pex.
R of 4.7 per inch. with 9" across, minus 3, 6 split in 1/2, result * 4.7 is R on all sides of pipe. R of 14.1.
Now, i've called a few places that sell the polyurethane pipe and of all the people i asked, i could only get one to give me an answer, he said it's got an R of 13. Dunno how true that is? anyone have an idea?
i called about the pre-made thermopex pipe, and no one will tell me the value.the only reply i get is " it's really good stuff, you can put it in water"
wtf kind of an asnwer is that? doesn't sound very professional if you ask me. and if it's so good, how come no one knows any numbers? sounds over cracked up if you ask me.
I'm just tryign to ttake the middle man out of the picture. if i could only find someone that makes the stuff that CB sells...because we all *KNOW* CB doesn't make this stuff themselves, they just order and resell....
anyways, 8ft sections of 9" pieces works out to be $25 for each section. about $3.16 a foot, 1/2 the price and the same R, if not a bit more.. This is, also, according to a CB dealer, the sleeve is 13" wide. If someone could post me some accurate information about the sleeve diameter, that would be highly appreciated. I'd hate to order 200Ft cut of this and end up i need to shave 1/2" off it.....
R of 4.7 per inch. with 9" across, minus 3, 6 split in 1/2, result * 4.7 is R on all sides of pipe. R of 14.1.
Now, i've called a few places that sell the polyurethane pipe and of all the people i asked, i could only get one to give me an answer, he said it's got an R of 13. Dunno how true that is? anyone have an idea?
i called about the pre-made thermopex pipe, and no one will tell me the value.the only reply i get is " it's really good stuff, you can put it in water"
wtf kind of an asnwer is that? doesn't sound very professional if you ask me. and if it's so good, how come no one knows any numbers? sounds over cracked up if you ask me.
I'm just tryign to ttake the middle man out of the picture. if i could only find someone that makes the stuff that CB sells...because we all *KNOW* CB doesn't make this stuff themselves, they just order and resell....
anyways, 8ft sections of 9" pieces works out to be $25 for each section. about $3.16 a foot, 1/2 the price and the same R, if not a bit more.. This is, also, according to a CB dealer, the sleeve is 13" wide. If someone could post me some accurate information about the sleeve diameter, that would be highly appreciated. I'd hate to order 200Ft cut of this and end up i need to shave 1/2" off it.....
Did you call CB for the R value of Thermopex? I'm not exactly sure what your trying to do in that last post other than buy thermopex from somone other than CB...
What type of foam are you trying to get cut by someone? EPS (i.e. stryofoam)? Sounds like maybe your trying to copy the green tube foam CB sold before the thermopex?
I'm all for trying to find a cheaper way to do something, I'm a diehard do-it-yourselfer...but in this case....put it this way...I just went through what your going through a few months ago. I work in the foam industry for one of the biggest foam molders in the country, I have access to all kinds of foam and run a CNC machine also so I could cut whatever I wanted...and I couldn't get it to make sense to not buy the Thermopex. Yes it's expensive, trust me I had to go 100 feet with it and didn't like paying $1100 for it....but it's waterproof, it's easy to use and it's insulated well....my trench is exposed right now and there is snow on my tube right now with two runs of 180 degree water in it, what else can you ask for? My trench also filled with water after some rain and the thermopex just floated....tells me it is waterproof which it needs to be to stay insulated.... Again I design EPS (stryrofoam) parts all day long and the foam used in the thermopex is better in wet areas (i.e. underground)...plus each run of pipe is seperate from each other, didn't like the throught of that green stuff CB sells with the pipes next to each other, there will be about a 20 degree drop between the pipes in that tube, they WILL transfer heat between each other...
Just my $.02
What type of foam are you trying to get cut by someone? EPS (i.e. stryofoam)? Sounds like maybe your trying to copy the green tube foam CB sold before the thermopex?
I'm all for trying to find a cheaper way to do something, I'm a diehard do-it-yourselfer...but in this case....put it this way...I just went through what your going through a few months ago. I work in the foam industry for one of the biggest foam molders in the country, I have access to all kinds of foam and run a CNC machine also so I could cut whatever I wanted...and I couldn't get it to make sense to not buy the Thermopex. Yes it's expensive, trust me I had to go 100 feet with it and didn't like paying $1100 for it....but it's waterproof, it's easy to use and it's insulated well....my trench is exposed right now and there is snow on my tube right now with two runs of 180 degree water in it, what else can you ask for? My trench also filled with water after some rain and the thermopex just floated....tells me it is waterproof which it needs to be to stay insulated.... Again I design EPS (stryrofoam) parts all day long and the foam used in the thermopex is better in wet areas (i.e. underground)...plus each run of pipe is seperate from each other, didn't like the throught of that green stuff CB sells with the pipes next to each other, there will be about a 20 degree drop between the pipes in that tube, they WILL transfer heat between each other...
Just my $.02
November Wolf
ArboristSite Operative
Here is a link to the Logstor pipe that I used. http://jandspipe.com/
The place is up in northern michigan by Kalkaska.
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trialanderror
ArboristSite Operative
Did you call CB for the R value of Thermopex? I'm not exactly sure what your trying to do in that last post other than buy thermopex from somone other than CB...
What type of foam are you trying to get cut by someone? EPS (i.e. stryofoam)? Sounds like maybe your trying to copy the green tube foam CB sold before the thermopex?
I'm all for trying to find a cheaper way to do something, I'm a diehard do-it-yourselfer...but in this case....put it this way...I just went through what your going through a few months ago. I work in the foam industry for one of the biggest foam molders in the country, I have access to all kinds of foam and run a CNC machine also so I could cut whatever I wanted...and I couldn't get it to make sense to not buy the Thermopex. Yes it's expensive, trust me I had to go 100 feet with it and didn't like paying $1100 for it....but it's waterproof, it's easy to use and it's insulated well....my trench is exposed right now and there is snow on my tube right now with two runs of 180 degree water in it, what else can you ask for? My trench also filled with water after some rain and the thermopex just floated....tells me it is waterproof which it needs to be to stay insulated.... Again I design EPS (stryrofoam) parts all day long and the foam used in the thermopex is better in wet areas (i.e. underground)...plus each run of pipe is seperate from each other, didn't like the throught of that green stuff CB sells with the pipes next to each other, there will be about a 20 degree drop between the pipes in that tube, they WILL transfer heat between each other...
Just my $.02
called CB themselves, can't get any specifications out of them. no one knows the R of anything. like i said, they only say " it's really good, you can put it in water".
thx wolf, someone else mentioned something about logstor too, or maybe a different thread? not sure. will check into it tomorrow.
trialanderror
ArboristSite Operative
sh!tbeans, i quoted the wrong person too.. my bad
trialanderror
ArboristSite Operative
according to this link
http://www.fomo.com/resources/technical-bulletins/opencellvsclosed.aspx
closed cell has an R of about 6.
according to J & S pipe, the overall jacket OD is 4.3, and the water OD is 1.25, and there's 2. so 2.5" wide is displaced from water supply lines, so we have 1.8 inches of total insulation to work with. split that in 1/2, come up with 0.9 inches of insulation between the pipe and the jacket wall. times 6 and that's an R value of 5.4. not too impressive, unless i'm doing my math wrong?
this is also the best case scenario, since they don't specificy whether it's open or closed cell. if it's open cell we're looking at an R of 3.5, which i hope not....for $13 a foot....
edit
this is also assuming the pipes are right tight together, and by the looks of the photos, they aren't, so the area of insulation between the water supplies and the jacket wall are even closer.....
http://www.fomo.com/resources/technical-bulletins/opencellvsclosed.aspx
closed cell has an R of about 6.
according to J & S pipe, the overall jacket OD is 4.3, and the water OD is 1.25, and there's 2. so 2.5" wide is displaced from water supply lines, so we have 1.8 inches of total insulation to work with. split that in 1/2, come up with 0.9 inches of insulation between the pipe and the jacket wall. times 6 and that's an R value of 5.4. not too impressive, unless i'm doing my math wrong?
this is also the best case scenario, since they don't specificy whether it's open or closed cell. if it's open cell we're looking at an R of 3.5, which i hope not....for $13 a foot....
edit
this is also assuming the pipes are right tight together, and by the looks of the photos, they aren't, so the area of insulation between the water supplies and the jacket wall are even closer.....
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dirtyedge
ArboristSite Lurker
You may be able to find more information on Insulpex made by Rehau. Rehau makes thermopex for CB, and all of the pex that CB sells is rehau pipe.
I used one length of 1 1/4 thermopex and then found out I could get it much cheaper by buying Insulpex so I ordered a second run of 1" insulpex.
I have 150' run that I dug in Nov, and the dirt froze before I could fill it in, but I do know that in the last 2 months the snow has not melted off of either pipes so the R-value has to be much higher than your calculations
And in both pipes the pex lines do not touch they are seperated by .25-.5" of foam
I used one length of 1 1/4 thermopex and then found out I could get it much cheaper by buying Insulpex so I ordered a second run of 1" insulpex.
I have 150' run that I dug in Nov, and the dirt froze before I could fill it in, but I do know that in the last 2 months the snow has not melted off of either pipes so the R-value has to be much higher than your calculations
And in both pipes the pex lines do not touch they are seperated by .25-.5" of foam
November Wolf
ArboristSite Operative
I think you may be over analyzing the pex tubing issue. Either the Thermopex or Logstor stuff is the best on the market. Anything different than that and you will have to insulate it very well in hopes of getting the same results.
trialanderror
ArboristSite Operative
yah, i got ahead of myself.
CB copied the stuff from logstor, one of the ways to get around the patent was to rib the insulation on the outer jacket, which naturally makes less insulation on the inner ribbed parts...\\
i had to do some phone work.
i called J & S piping near kalkaska, they told me to call GLH, which is where they get their pipe. GLH told me to call W M H interprise, which are distributors for every one, and they get their supplies from overseas. maybe it was the otherway, anyways....
it's from denmark in europe, and it's made in germany.
guy said he ships alot to holland, so, he said $10 and i can meet him at a truck stop and get it that way. figure it's worth the shipping for $10.
he wants $12 a foot. he told me the english use a different way to measure heat loss, but, in layman terms, says at 180F it looses a 1/2 degree every 100 ft pumping at 3 1/2 gallon a minute.
http://www.finkmachine.com/pexflex.html
CB copied the stuff from logstor, one of the ways to get around the patent was to rib the insulation on the outer jacket, which naturally makes less insulation on the inner ribbed parts...\\
i had to do some phone work.
i called J & S piping near kalkaska, they told me to call GLH, which is where they get their pipe. GLH told me to call W M H interprise, which are distributors for every one, and they get their supplies from overseas. maybe it was the otherway, anyways....
it's from denmark in europe, and it's made in germany.
guy said he ships alot to holland, so, he said $10 and i can meet him at a truck stop and get it that way. figure it's worth the shipping for $10.
he wants $12 a foot. he told me the english use a different way to measure heat loss, but, in layman terms, says at 180F it looses a 1/2 degree every 100 ft pumping at 3 1/2 gallon a minute.
http://www.finkmachine.com/pexflex.html
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John D
Addicted to ArboristSite
I agree,an r6 is fine anyway.Just R value isnt the end allof of measurement of how well it insulates,and the most important part is that the pipe stays dry,and have no way for air to inflitrate and move carrying out your heat,which the thick waterproof outer layer ensures it will not leak.The solorguard wrapping has a higher r value on paper,but doesnt take into consideration the infiltration of air between layers,and the 4" drain pipe,the fact that it is not filled solid,so even with a better R value,there is similar temp drop.
trialanderror
ArboristSite Operative
after looking at this
http://www.heatexchangersonline.com/airtowater.htm
and this
http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/SelectingCirculators.pdf
and needing 2 radiant heat and 1 heat exchanger, the HX being in the 19x22 range, as right now a propane furnace that's rated for 90k btu isn't enough, (runs for 3-5 minutes, every 10 minutes or so,it's a 67,000 btu/hr furnace, so i figured a 150k unit., according to the chart, if i run it at the lowest 140f and slowest CFM fan speed, it'll be in the 80's)
should i go with the 150k unit? then i need like 15gal/min and 1" pex is only able to do 7.5gal minute?
an eye opener maybe? what should i do? install the 1.25" pex just to be safe? i'd like to run a small heat exchanger in the garage, and one on the furnace, then maybe a tiny one on the patio porch. all in series of course, with the house heat exchanger being the first in line. (maybe install shutoffs and a H connector with a valve to regulate water flow as needed?)
any ideas?
*edit
naturally, 1" fittings aren't 1" ID...
http://www.heatexchangersonline.com/airtowater.htm
and this
http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/SelectingCirculators.pdf
and needing 2 radiant heat and 1 heat exchanger, the HX being in the 19x22 range, as right now a propane furnace that's rated for 90k btu isn't enough, (runs for 3-5 minutes, every 10 minutes or so,it's a 67,000 btu/hr furnace, so i figured a 150k unit., according to the chart, if i run it at the lowest 140f and slowest CFM fan speed, it'll be in the 80's)
should i go with the 150k unit? then i need like 15gal/min and 1" pex is only able to do 7.5gal minute?
an eye opener maybe? what should i do? install the 1.25" pex just to be safe? i'd like to run a small heat exchanger in the garage, and one on the furnace, then maybe a tiny one on the patio porch. all in series of course, with the house heat exchanger being the first in line. (maybe install shutoffs and a H connector with a valve to regulate water flow as needed?)
any ideas?
*edit
naturally, 1" fittings aren't 1" ID...
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trialanderror
ArboristSite Operative
think i'm going with 1.25" pex. it'll give me some leadway. even if i don't pull a full 150k from the HX, i'll still have some room to work with with other systems that are plumped in serious.....
trialanderror
ArboristSite Operative
i was on emergency standby this weekend, so i was locked down to the '10 min drive' rule....so lastnight i rolled up north and did some more work. got the bottom welded in, started on the front. juts gotta do a few more peices in the front and the 1 peice in the back, and i'll be ready to pressure test.
like a new phone and horrible pictures...one of them motorola rokr z6m's....
and check out them sexy beads...gf would probably appreciate it if I lay her as good as i do them beads.....
like a new phone and horrible pictures...one of them motorola rokr z6m's....
and check out them sexy beads...gf would probably appreciate it if I lay her as good as i do them beads.....
trialanderror
ArboristSite Operative
pics of the front
trialanderror
ArboristSite Operative
pressure tested it today.
got some grinder work to do....
basically it's better as a sprinkler then a boiler....
i can't complain, a few pinholes when working with rusty nasty material. can't expect much.
got most of them taken care of. other then that it turned out nice. i hocked a few circulation pumps from work. Andi I didn't forget, someone in the community was nice enough to sponsor some hardware for my project, you know who you are. It's highly appreciated
But the garage is needed for some automotive work, so sunday gonna put the pinhole patch problem aside and going to start plumbing up the house with copper. 2 more weeks is another payday, so i should have enough to buy 80ft of logstor plumbing.
more progress to post as...more progress is done....
got some grinder work to do....
basically it's better as a sprinkler then a boiler....
i can't complain, a few pinholes when working with rusty nasty material. can't expect much.
got most of them taken care of. other then that it turned out nice. i hocked a few circulation pumps from work. Andi I didn't forget, someone in the community was nice enough to sponsor some hardware for my project, you know who you are
. It's highly appreciatedBut the garage is needed for some automotive work, so sunday gonna put the pinhole patch problem aside and going to start plumbing up the house with copper. 2 more weeks is another payday, so i should have enough to buy 80ft of logstor plumbing.
more progress to post as...more progress is done....
Blazin
Addicted to ArboristSite
Nice job so far... Do yourself a favor and grind the rusty steel before you weld it!
morningwood
ArboristSite Lurker
These images are borrowed from a Garn installation.
This is what I thought about doing to save some money if I put a OWB in.
If I remember right this guy said on ********** he had around 7$ a foot in getting the pipe into the ground.
Alot better than 12$ - 16$ per foot for logstor or central pex.
Thanks,
Scott
This is what I thought about doing to save some money if I put a OWB in.
If I remember right this guy said on ********** he had around 7$ a foot in getting the pipe into the ground.
Alot better than 12$ - 16$ per foot for logstor or central pex.
Thanks,
Scott
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