LoveStihlQuality
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Uh, okay, thanks Jon. So then you are volunteering to tell my 80 year old Dad that he doesn't need to to keep batteries off the floor? Been nice knowing ya.
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Don't store Saws on Concrete!
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Still skeptical - and I'm going back to the sixties when the cases were still the old material. I even remember my dad changing cells in a battery when one went bad. If acid was finding it's way through the casing, why wouldn't it corrode the battery tray in the car? If there was a current path, why wouldn't the battery discharge through itself? Going to do some more checking on this.
OP - sorry to derail your thread. I will post any new info in a new thread.
ChoppyChoppy
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What the lime?
chainsawlady
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Back when the batteries were made with wood and rubber, may have been a problem.....
chainsawlady
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Somewhere in the back of my mind it rings a bell. It seems a Homelite representative explained to us that magnesium is made from sea water or something similar and setting on concrete will make the magnesium back to original. I do remember setting some old tradeins in the building with concrete floors and it seemed to eat up the magnesium. Is there an expert that could explain this better.
chainsawlady
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If an expert was to actually appear, very few here would believe him/her.
Grandpa trumps all!!!
Grandpa trumps all!!!
They went dead on the cement several times, I learned to set them on a board & they would hold a charge.
Just finished test.
Blow dirt off my unpainted concrete floor in my furnace/parts washing tank room.
Assuming normal humidity in concrete but has not had water on it for over 6 months.
Fluke volt meter on millivolts...touch leads together 0.00mv...touch tips to concrete about 3" apart and as expected get 2.3mv.
Magnesium is VERY reactive metal and I would fully expect corrosion damage unless concrete it epoxy painted or similar, or the saw is 100% painted with NO bare spots that touch the concrete
A battery is laden with sulfuric acid which is a great conductor. Not sure there is acid????would you lick it???
A 100% scrub with soapy tide detergent and super rinse and blow dry is my minimum for dealing with loose batteries and even then prefer to put them on a 2x4 block off the concrete.
my 2 cents
Blow dirt off my unpainted concrete floor in my furnace/parts washing tank room.
Assuming normal humidity in concrete but has not had water on it for over 6 months.
Fluke volt meter on millivolts...touch leads together 0.00mv...touch tips to concrete about 3" apart and as expected get 2.3mv.
Magnesium is VERY reactive metal and I would fully expect corrosion damage unless concrete it epoxy painted or similar, or the saw is 100% painted with NO bare spots that touch the concrete
A battery is laden with sulfuric acid which is a great conductor. Not sure there is acid????would you lick it???
A 100% scrub with soapy tide detergent and super rinse and blow dry is my minimum for dealing with loose batteries and even then prefer to put them on a 2x4 block off the concrete.
my 2 cents
Sorry, maybe I didn't understand very well...
Are you saying that in a 3" bare concrete floor distance you measured 2,3 mV?!?!?
Did you find out a new energy source?!?
Sorry, I'm sure I didn't catch very well, so I'd appreciate a clearer explanation
Thanks
Yes that's true, and I fully expected some reading of voltage. It's the chemicals in the concrete...starting with water in the form of humidity then dirt, cement, lime if any and other additives
It has to be very very old knowledge but not well known unless you live in the science/engineering world.
The power source is very high impedance source (low current capability) so there is no practical good use for this power except to eat saws and provide a conduction path for discharging batteries. A very high input impedance meter, like a fluke, must be used or the voltage gets shorted out by a (low impedance) analog meter and you may not get a reading.
If it was a lower impedance source the saw might be eaten away over night.
Only by putting the concrete in a screaming hot furnace to TOTALLY bake out any residual humidity would I expect the voltage/current to go away. After sitting cooled off a few days in the humid atmosphere I would expect it to come back very very slowly.
I get that much voltage and more just moving the leads around not touching each other. How old is your concrete? I just connected my VOM from a fully charged battery + terminal and then to the - terminal and touched the other lead all over the battery and got no voltage. (200mv scale).
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So, if this concrete theory has any validity....
All saws sitting on concrete for a year or more "SHOULD" show signs of corrosion?
And this corrosion is @ the spot where where it contacts the floor?
Bare paint spots? What if you have a saw that has been sitting on concrete for years, and has "NO" corrosion?
All saws sitting on concrete for a year or more "SHOULD" show signs of corrosion?
And this corrosion is @ the spot where where it contacts the floor?
Bare paint spots? What if you have a saw that has been sitting on concrete for years, and has "NO" corrosion?
You would need moisture to corrode the saw. There can be salts in the concrete themselves or it can migrate through. Salt plus water is corrosive. Mag is easily eaten up very quickly.
For those of you that want a read, check this info from Kaiser Cement which will explain it.
Efflorescence Causes, Removal, and Prevention
Efflorescence is a crystaline deposit on surfaces of masonry, stucco or concrete. It is whitish in appearance, and is sometimes referred to as "whiskers". Efflorescence has been a problem for many years, and is a topic of much controversy. The formation of these salt deposits are not mysteries. They are, for the most part, water-soluble salts that come from many possible sources to mar and detract from an otherwise beautiful and serviceable structure. First of all, there must be water present to dissolve and transport the salts. Groundwater is often a source of efflorescence. For water to carry or move the salts to the surface there must be channels through which to move and migrate. The more dense the material, whether it be brick, stone, stucco or concrete, the more difficult for the water to transport salts to the surface. Conversely, the more porous the material, the greater the ease with which salts are transported and deposited. Salt-bearing water, on reaching the surface of a structure, air evaporates to deposit the salt. When humidity is low, the water may evaporate before reaching the surface of the structure, leaving the salt deposit beneath the surface, and unseen. When the humidity is high, water evaporation is slower allowing more opportunity for whisker growth. Growths which project 1/4 to 1/2 inch below the surface have been reported in some areas of the country.
Since humidity has a definite effect on whether or not the salts appear, it can be assumed that efflorescence is a seasonal problem. The intensity of efflorescence increases after rainy winter seasons, decreases in spring, and by summer has practically disappeared. This cycle may repeat for months or years, but generally the intensity of the efflorescence decreases in all but very extreme cases, and by about the third year it should be practically eliminated.
The mechanics by which efflorescing salts are carried to the surface of structures by moisture and capillary action through porous materials, is understood. The amount and character of the material deposited varies considerable, depending on the nature and source of the soluble materials.
Composition of Efflorescence
The problem of efflorescence, or the deposit of water-soluble salts on the surfaces of masonry, stucco or concrete, is an old one, and one that has been studied and reported on as early as 1877. These reports are all in common agreement that efflorescence originates from more than one source, and may be made up of more than one or two compounds.
In addition, other salts such as chlorides and nitrates, and salts of vanadium, chromium and molybdenum are mentioned without giving specific composition. These last, particularly vanadium, are said to produce green efflorescence on white or buff burned clay units, while other salts produce white or gray deposits. Efflorescence derived from complex vanadium compounds contained in the clay used in brick manufacture is not uncommon in the southwestern part of the United States.
Sources of Efflorescence
There are many sources for water-soluble salts with some salts more soluble than others. The movement of groundwater into building foundations and by capillary action, or wicking, upwards into masonry, stucco or concrete, is very often the cause of efflorescence. In the case where soil conditions exhibit water soluble sulfates, precautions should be taken to preclude the passage of this sulfate-bearing water to the structure. Low absorption is the best assurance against efflorescence. Properly graded aggregates, low water-cement ratio, good compaction and proper curing practices will produce concrete of maximum density and low water absorption.
Sand and gravel, in their natural state, may or may not have been associated with salt bearing water or soil. If they have, and these salts are not removed by washing, this can be a possible source for efflorescence. Most rock, sand and gravel plants, however, are conscientious in washing material so that any contribution made to efflorescence from this source is negligible.
When mixing-water used for mortar, stucco or concrete is obtained from a natural source which has been in contact with a sulfate-bearing soil, the resulting structure may exhibit efflorescence. The adherence, again, to a good concreting practice of low water-cement ratio, will help reduce the appearance of salts from this source.
Another potential source of soluble salts are clay products, such as building brick and face brick. Generally, in the present day manufacture of these products, the highly soluble salts are washed from the clay, and a barium salt such as barium carbonate is added to the product, to react with the calcium sulfate which may be present. In this reaction, the product is two fairly insoluble compounds-barium sulfate and calcium carbonate. When produced in this manner, clay products exhibit little tendency to efflorescence.
Building brick must be stored in a dry place off the ground to prevent absorption of moisture or dampness from possible salt bearing soil. A standard test may be made to show the capacity of brick to contribute to efflorescence through soluble salt content. A brick is placed on end in a pan of distilled water for seven days, in which time water is drawn upward and through the brick and then evaporated from the surface. Soluble salts are taken into solution by the water and deposited on the surface.
It has also been noted that the occurrence of efflorescence bears a relationship to the type of mortar used. With a particular type of brick and a certain mortar no efflorescence may occur, whereas, the same brick with different mortar may produce a wall heavily coated with salt deposits. The appearances of sodium and potassium salts (as sulfates) usually suggest Portland cement mortar as the origin. The use of low alkali cement in mortar and grout will minimize efflorescence, at least from this source.
Since, for the most part, concrete masonry is somewhat porous, evaporation of the salt bearing water usually takes place before reaching the surface when exposed to a drying atmosphere. The hydroxides are converted by reaction with the carbon dioxide of the air to alkali and calcium carbonates. Efflorescence in the form of alkali chlorides and sulfates is formed when the structure is surrounded, exposed, or in contact with salt-bearing water or soil and appears as columnar or whisker-like crystals.
Some of the sources of water-soluble salts have been covered. These may be deposited on stucco, masonry or concrete walls as efflorescence. Practically any building materials in direct contact with the earth are potential sources for water-soluble salts. This fact has been recognized by the various producers of building materials, and steps have been taken to reduce their presence to a great degree.
Removal of Efflorescence
Several methods are suggested. One is to use water under pressure or one of a number of products available from stone dealers; another is muriatic acid with subsequent flushing with water. Acid applied to brick masonry, without previous wetting, may cause "burning" or discoloration of the brick and may also eat into the mortar. The Handbook on Reinforced Grouted Brick Masonry Construction suggests the use of light sandblasting for removal of stubborn efflorescence (after many months). Allowing the surface to dry thoroughly and then using a stiff brush, prior to washing with water, has helped prevent re-penetration of the surface by the salt.
Various methods have been used in attempts to remove efflorescence from masonry structures. It has been found that when efflorescence is caused by soluble alkali salts, the salts will dissolve in water applied to the structure and migrate back into it. These salts would then reappear on the surface as the structure redried. It was learned accordingly, that the best way to remove these soluble salts was to brush the surface thoroughly with a stiff brush. Water, however, has been satisfactory for removing efflorescence from the face of concrete structures, since concrete is fairly well saturated with water. In fact, efflorescence in the form of alkali salts will be washed from the surface of concrete structures, if exposed to rain, over some period of time. If the coating is largely calcium carbonate or calcium sulfate, it adheres rather strongly and is difficult to remove by brushing. The practice developed in this case for masonry surfaces, has been to saturate the structure as thoroughly as possible with water, and then wash with diluted muriatic acid, followed immediately with an alkaline wash, then washed with water. The acid recommended is five (5) parts hydrochloric to one hundred (100) parts water, or twenty (20) parts vinegar to one hundred (100) parts water. The alkaline wash recommended is diluted household ammonia.
Much care must be taken in applying acid to Portland cement products. The acid will attack, not only the calcium carbonate and calcium sulfate efflorescence, but also other calcium compounds to produce calcium salts such as calcium chloride. It is, therefore, very important to neutralize the acid before it can attack other compounds.
Thanks to Kaiser Cement who supplied information for this document.
For those of you that want a read, check this info from Kaiser Cement which will explain it.
Efflorescence Causes, Removal, and Prevention
Efflorescence is a crystaline deposit on surfaces of masonry, stucco or concrete. It is whitish in appearance, and is sometimes referred to as "whiskers". Efflorescence has been a problem for many years, and is a topic of much controversy. The formation of these salt deposits are not mysteries. They are, for the most part, water-soluble salts that come from many possible sources to mar and detract from an otherwise beautiful and serviceable structure. First of all, there must be water present to dissolve and transport the salts. Groundwater is often a source of efflorescence. For water to carry or move the salts to the surface there must be channels through which to move and migrate. The more dense the material, whether it be brick, stone, stucco or concrete, the more difficult for the water to transport salts to the surface. Conversely, the more porous the material, the greater the ease with which salts are transported and deposited. Salt-bearing water, on reaching the surface of a structure, air evaporates to deposit the salt. When humidity is low, the water may evaporate before reaching the surface of the structure, leaving the salt deposit beneath the surface, and unseen. When the humidity is high, water evaporation is slower allowing more opportunity for whisker growth. Growths which project 1/4 to 1/2 inch below the surface have been reported in some areas of the country.
Since humidity has a definite effect on whether or not the salts appear, it can be assumed that efflorescence is a seasonal problem. The intensity of efflorescence increases after rainy winter seasons, decreases in spring, and by summer has practically disappeared. This cycle may repeat for months or years, but generally the intensity of the efflorescence decreases in all but very extreme cases, and by about the third year it should be practically eliminated.
The mechanics by which efflorescing salts are carried to the surface of structures by moisture and capillary action through porous materials, is understood. The amount and character of the material deposited varies considerable, depending on the nature and source of the soluble materials.
Composition of Efflorescence
The problem of efflorescence, or the deposit of water-soluble salts on the surfaces of masonry, stucco or concrete, is an old one, and one that has been studied and reported on as early as 1877. These reports are all in common agreement that efflorescence originates from more than one source, and may be made up of more than one or two compounds.
In addition, other salts such as chlorides and nitrates, and salts of vanadium, chromium and molybdenum are mentioned without giving specific composition. These last, particularly vanadium, are said to produce green efflorescence on white or buff burned clay units, while other salts produce white or gray deposits. Efflorescence derived from complex vanadium compounds contained in the clay used in brick manufacture is not uncommon in the southwestern part of the United States.
Sources of Efflorescence
There are many sources for water-soluble salts with some salts more soluble than others. The movement of groundwater into building foundations and by capillary action, or wicking, upwards into masonry, stucco or concrete, is very often the cause of efflorescence. In the case where soil conditions exhibit water soluble sulfates, precautions should be taken to preclude the passage of this sulfate-bearing water to the structure. Low absorption is the best assurance against efflorescence. Properly graded aggregates, low water-cement ratio, good compaction and proper curing practices will produce concrete of maximum density and low water absorption.
Sand and gravel, in their natural state, may or may not have been associated with salt bearing water or soil. If they have, and these salts are not removed by washing, this can be a possible source for efflorescence. Most rock, sand and gravel plants, however, are conscientious in washing material so that any contribution made to efflorescence from this source is negligible.
When mixing-water used for mortar, stucco or concrete is obtained from a natural source which has been in contact with a sulfate-bearing soil, the resulting structure may exhibit efflorescence. The adherence, again, to a good concreting practice of low water-cement ratio, will help reduce the appearance of salts from this source.
Another potential source of soluble salts are clay products, such as building brick and face brick. Generally, in the present day manufacture of these products, the highly soluble salts are washed from the clay, and a barium salt such as barium carbonate is added to the product, to react with the calcium sulfate which may be present. In this reaction, the product is two fairly insoluble compounds-barium sulfate and calcium carbonate. When produced in this manner, clay products exhibit little tendency to efflorescence.
Building brick must be stored in a dry place off the ground to prevent absorption of moisture or dampness from possible salt bearing soil. A standard test may be made to show the capacity of brick to contribute to efflorescence through soluble salt content. A brick is placed on end in a pan of distilled water for seven days, in which time water is drawn upward and through the brick and then evaporated from the surface. Soluble salts are taken into solution by the water and deposited on the surface.
It has also been noted that the occurrence of efflorescence bears a relationship to the type of mortar used. With a particular type of brick and a certain mortar no efflorescence may occur, whereas, the same brick with different mortar may produce a wall heavily coated with salt deposits. The appearances of sodium and potassium salts (as sulfates) usually suggest Portland cement mortar as the origin. The use of low alkali cement in mortar and grout will minimize efflorescence, at least from this source.
Since, for the most part, concrete masonry is somewhat porous, evaporation of the salt bearing water usually takes place before reaching the surface when exposed to a drying atmosphere. The hydroxides are converted by reaction with the carbon dioxide of the air to alkali and calcium carbonates. Efflorescence in the form of alkali chlorides and sulfates is formed when the structure is surrounded, exposed, or in contact with salt-bearing water or soil and appears as columnar or whisker-like crystals.
Some of the sources of water-soluble salts have been covered. These may be deposited on stucco, masonry or concrete walls as efflorescence. Practically any building materials in direct contact with the earth are potential sources for water-soluble salts. This fact has been recognized by the various producers of building materials, and steps have been taken to reduce their presence to a great degree.
Removal of Efflorescence
Several methods are suggested. One is to use water under pressure or one of a number of products available from stone dealers; another is muriatic acid with subsequent flushing with water. Acid applied to brick masonry, without previous wetting, may cause "burning" or discoloration of the brick and may also eat into the mortar. The Handbook on Reinforced Grouted Brick Masonry Construction suggests the use of light sandblasting for removal of stubborn efflorescence (after many months). Allowing the surface to dry thoroughly and then using a stiff brush, prior to washing with water, has helped prevent re-penetration of the surface by the salt.
Various methods have been used in attempts to remove efflorescence from masonry structures. It has been found that when efflorescence is caused by soluble alkali salts, the salts will dissolve in water applied to the structure and migrate back into it. These salts would then reappear on the surface as the structure redried. It was learned accordingly, that the best way to remove these soluble salts was to brush the surface thoroughly with a stiff brush. Water, however, has been satisfactory for removing efflorescence from the face of concrete structures, since concrete is fairly well saturated with water. In fact, efflorescence in the form of alkali salts will be washed from the surface of concrete structures, if exposed to rain, over some period of time. If the coating is largely calcium carbonate or calcium sulfate, it adheres rather strongly and is difficult to remove by brushing. The practice developed in this case for masonry surfaces, has been to saturate the structure as thoroughly as possible with water, and then wash with diluted muriatic acid, followed immediately with an alkaline wash, then washed with water. The acid recommended is five (5) parts hydrochloric to one hundred (100) parts water, or twenty (20) parts vinegar to one hundred (100) parts water. The alkaline wash recommended is diluted household ammonia.
Much care must be taken in applying acid to Portland cement products. The acid will attack, not only the calcium carbonate and calcium sulfate efflorescence, but also other calcium compounds to produce calcium salts such as calcium chloride. It is, therefore, very important to neutralize the acid before it can attack other compounds.
Thanks to Kaiser Cement who supplied information for this document.
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For the sake of this thread, I went out in the garage and found a saw carcass that has been there for at least 5 years.
My garage is brutal, the floor sweats after a rain, so any electro-chemical voodoo should have been stimulated.
My garage is brutal, the floor sweats after a rain, so any electro-chemical voodoo should have been stimulated.
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You can see the exposure to moisture, by looking at the sprocket rust.
One possibility, is that this phenomonem is exacerbated by living in northeren states that use a lot of salts in the winter... Not much salt is used around here. And I don't pull a vehicle in the garage either.
One possibility, is that this phenomonem is exacerbated by living in northeren states that use a lot of salts in the winter... Not much salt is used around here. And I don't pull a vehicle in the garage either.
CentaurG2
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Every stilh I have ever owned leaked bar oil like the Exxon Valdez. I really don’t see how it could possibly corrode on a concrete floor unless you never use it. Oh wait….
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So are you saying that the folks here never use chainsaws? Or never use Stihls? Just trying to guess your implication...
I am a bit slow....
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