electric on demand water heaters

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mt.stalker

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I am considering installing either a whole house unit or several point of use units .
Can anyone here share their experiances and or recommendations ?
I currently have an oil fired Slant Finn furnace with no storage tank , just hot water straight off the boiler .
 
The last on demand electric water heater I wired ( I'm an electrical contractor) took 3-60 amp circuits. If you have space in your electric panel this can be an alternative. This heater worked very well and the electricity usage was surprisingly low. I don't know what the home owner paid for the unit but was told "A LOT".
 
Normally I never recommend that you heat anything with electric. However in your case being raped (as I am too) by the oil companies the last thing you want is that boiler running all summer just to provide hot water.

Electric rates downstate where I am are ridiculous but may not be as bad where you are. I'm going to say that small point-of-use insta-hots are going to be more efficient than one unit for the whole house. However, something you may not realize is these things use lots of power so what you are going to have to consider also is your present electical service in the house and whether it can handle the additional load of whatever you decide. Obviously one whole house unit is going to require a much larger circuit than several point-of use units also considering the demand factor- the point-of use units are only "on" when the associated sink or appliance draws water. But individual will require new individual circuits just the same.

It's probably going to be a tough call trying to nail down the electrical useage and costs to upgrade your service, wiring, etc for both types of systems. Your utility company may be able to help and you might also ask about any rebates they may provide for high efficiency units.

Another option that is going to be a lot cheaper upfront is to just throw in a conventional high efficiency hot water heater and fire it with propane. Propane is no bargain either but it's better than oil and again you dont have to keep your boiler going all summer.

Keep in mind also that insta-hots can be had propane fired also.
 
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Get yourself a power vent 50 gallon hot water tank powered with propane and don't look back, those sink units get crusty easy and never fail to disappoint.
 
How much hot water you use, and how widely separated the points of use are make it impossible to say what size water heater you need.

Heating water is the most efficient use of elect heat, all of the heat generated stays in the water and the unit can be super insulated. Gas water heaters start loosing heat up the chimney from the moment the fire shuts off and can't be safely insulated to prevent it. They are great for laundries and other places where the hot water use is constant, but a waste in most homes.

I prefer point of use heaters but they usually require new wire and breakers. Never have had a problem with the factory made ones, had to replace the element in the self built one after 3 years use. Our main water heater is a 30 gal electric, point of use heaters are for bathrooms. The question might be better asked in a plumber's forum.
 
Highly recommend on demand Gas water heaters

I have installed Nat Gas models in my last 3 homes, and would never install anything else. It is an investment for sure $1000 to $2000 but they will last forever. I would install a whole house Propance on demand, at least 180K BTU, with a digital temp setting. The digital models hold the temp over a much wider flow rate range. Keep in mind with on demand systems you have to maintain a minumum flow to keep the unit on, go too low on the flow and the burners shutdown. They never leak, need no maintenance, and never run out of hot water, if you have a hot tub or large bathtub they are really great! Some of the newer models have PVC exhaust (we installed one in a walkin closet) and remote temp setting panels so you can easily adjust the temp as needed.
 
I spent a lot a lot a lot of time researching the benefits and downsides of tankless heaters because our 30 gallon tank is 19 years old and about to kick the bucket. If I were to ever get one, it'd be NG/Propane, not electric. I never will, since I plan on getting rid of my propane as is.

The electric tankless heaters require a lot of power, which may require upgrading your panel, and in some cases your transformer outside if you get a large enough.

Here's some typical hot water flow rates:
Dishwasher 0.5 - 1.0 GPM
Bathroom Sink 0.5 - 1.5 GPM
Kitchen Sink 1.5 - 2.0 GPM
Washing Machine 2.0 - 2.5 GPM
Shower 1.5 - 2.5 GPM
Bath Tub 2.5 - 4.0 GPM

Most likely you won't be running everything at once, but lets say 2-3 at once, shower, kitchen sink 3gpm, wife accidentally turns on the washing machine you're up to 5gpm (minimum).

If you run a middle of the line 240v 80amp heater it produces roughly 4.25GPM. .75 below your 5gpm according to the scenario above. But, here's the main thing to research, is the Temp Rise. That 4.25gpm is based on a 30F temperature difference between your cold water in, and your set hot water temperature. If you set your hot water at 120 degrees (like a hot water tank), the 4.25GPM cold water temperature has to be 90 degrees to maintain 4.25gpm. No one's water comming in is that warm. Now, lets say cold water in is it's 60 degrees in the summer, that's a 70 degree temp rise. Your GPM is now reduced to 2GPM. This is a slightly low to medium sized, 80amp tankless heater. Which requires a minimum of 125AMP panel. So imagine winter, 45 degree incomming water temp, another 15 degrees to warm up.

These are absolute examples, obviously you're not running straight 2.0GPM 120 degree hot water while taking a shower, you're mixing in cold to bring the temp to something comfortable.

The tankless vs tank efficientcies are really usless too, in reality they're based on the most bottom of the line tank heaters, and even then, the time it will take to recoop the cost of a tankless heater, will require the lifetime of that unit to realize. I'm not against tankless, they're a great idea, especially if you don't have the room for a 40 gallon tank. But I would suggest a gas unit, unless your home is pretty small, and not a wife, 2.5 kids, and if you live somewhere fairly warm.

Unless money is not an issue, and you get a 150amp or better tankless unit (300amp recommended panel). Even still, talking nearly 8GPM, with very warm incomming water, still only 3.5GPM with a 70 degree temp rise (winter time).


And as far as point of use, I would not get those unless you're building a house, and can run it's own dedicated line for each. A small 120v point of use is still around 16a, requiring a 20amp breaker.


Not saying they're bad, I'd like to have one, if I was rich, and building a house from scratch, I would :) Oh and if you were thinking gas anyway, then most of what I said is usless. But things to keep in mind with gas is still the temp rise, research the BTUs for your required GPM. You may perhaps even need to upgrade your line from the gas meter or tank to supply enough gas.

Oh and my real world exp with this, my sister in laws house, small 2bdrm, 1 bath. Had a small 50amp unit someone installed before she bought the house. They didn't upgrade their main panel, it was as old as the house, 100amp panel, she litterally couldn't use anything while taking a shower, perhaps a few lights. She asked me to check our her panel because it kept tripping the main breaker when she took a shower. Told her why. This was probably an example of someone tossing in a unit w/o knowing better to upgrade their electrical, but still. And we're in central Arkansas, with 112 degree summer heat, and winters not usually below mid 20s at most, for a very short time. Usually above freezing. And that 50amp she could only get by using just the shower, or just the sink, etc.
 
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More on Tankless Heaters

Totally agree with last post from MrSpants, it really is best if you set your on demand temp to be what you consider comfy in the shower. You are just wasting hotwater otherwise, set your temp to 95-104 and don't mix in any cold water, vs running 120+ and blending in cold. Plenty hot for clothes washing, and most runs in dishwasher, use the sani cycle on your D/W if you want the temp back in the 130-140 range. D/W use the electric drying element in sani to raise the temp.
 
Totally agree with last post from MrSpants, it really is best if you set your on demand temp to be what you consider comfy in the shower. You are just wasting hotwater otherwise, set your temp to 95-104 and don't mix in any cold water, vs running 120+ and blending in cold. Plenty hot for clothes washing, and most runs in dishwasher, use the sani cycle on your D/W if you want the temp back in the 130-140 range. D/W use the electric drying element in sani to raise the temp.

Ya and that's the thing, if you have a newer dishwasher than can preheat from a cooler temperature, you're good to go. Otherwise nothing else really requires temps to be in the 120 range, washing whites perhaps :) And really with modern day detergents and machines, don't even need that.
 
Consider propane/ natural gas

If you already have propane delivery or nat. gas, these tankless units are ideal. I've been installing Rheem brand LPG tankless WH's for my clients. They are made in Japan by Paloma, which was a pioneer company in the field. They are easy to size for whole house applications- you order by the number of bathrooms- 1,2 or 3. They have an outdoor option which wall-mounts under an eave, or indoor, which requires a spendy stainless vent. They are available in LPG or nat. gas, prices range from $800 to $1200. One big downside to Rheem is they require 120 volt for a exhaust fan, so no hot water in a power outage/ not so good for off grid locations. For my off-grid clients I use Bosch brand, which are more expensive- more like $1600, but require no AC voltage. I have had nothing but positive feedback from people I've switched over from tanks, especially the ones I installed oversize tubs for!
 
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