Estimating

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Shaun, excellent posts. Well witten.

OP, the question I was trying to get answered was if your bids were off because you didn't have the manhours correct or if you just weren't charging enough per hour. I make a point of getting an estimated number down of the manhours required and then comparing it to the actual time the job took. Getting a good handle on your operating cost per hour can be done in short order. Learning how long each job should take to finish will require years. If you don't compare the estimated to the actual, you won't make muck progress in learning.
Rick
 
I've been under I'm both. I think a job will be nice and easy, and it turns into a nightmare. These posts have given me tons of ideas. I am totally revamping the way I estimate. I'm just afraid of over charging. I've contacted several companies in my area to get an idea of their rates, but they wouldn't tell me anything.
 
I've been under on both time and cost. I like the idea of adding 50% to the time. I figured out that it takes $70 an hour to cover costs, but I neglected to figure in profit. As far as good help goes, I have my brother in law, and he's pretty much useless. Thanks for the help.

LOL, I bet they didn't! Good initiative, bad judgement! Never ask them anything, they may give you a BS answer on purpose and that could be real bad! I have had guys come up to me and ask. I am willing to help, but that info is not getting out, especially to a person that I may be competing with. If someone on here gives you a ball park, that may not work either, as they are from another part of earth. Jeff and Beasty get alot more money out in SoCal than I ever would, just as I think I get more than the guys in the middle south. North east pays better than south east, so on and so forth.
What I have done, to get a idea of what the others are charging, in my area, is have a friend have their tree bid, I did, then they gave me the bids. I gave them $10 a bid, had them price it for pruning and removal. A bit shady............maybe. But I know they have done it to me too! Not that it makes it right, or anything, point being, I believe it may be a common practice
What was comical, she would ask them what was wrong with the tree, OH LORD, LOL!
 
I've been under I'm both. I think a job will be nice and easy, and it turns into a nightmare. These posts have given me tons of ideas. I am totally revamping the way I estimate. I'm just afraid of over charging. I've contacted several companies in my area to get an idea of their rates, but they wouldn't tell me anything.

Part of the reason why it's so hard is because there is no 'standard rate'. Some trades have blue book figures for specific jobs, say, changing brake pads for example. Tree work is so variable that you cant have that, but it sure would be nice if there was!

Rates vary by region, sure, but they vary a lot even by suburb within a city. I know I charge more in better neighbourhoods. Not because they have more money, but because they usually have nicer/cleaner yards that need more cleanup, and they expect a higher level of service typically. An experienced qualified insured contractor with a crew and equipment is rightfully going to charge more for a job than a beginner climber working after hours slashing it up and putting it in his 6x4 trailer. Everybody has to start somewhere though, and a lot of us started at the bottom! Rates will even vary with the same company depending on how much work they have. I'm lucky enough to own all my own gear and not have any overheads, so I dont have to drop my prices in quiet times as much as the big boys do... but in winter I do work for less.

When I look at a job I generally know what it will cost me, what comparable companies in my area would charge, what a hack would charge, and what a highballer would charge. I also know what i would do it for as a minimum if I was hungry, and what I would like to get for it in an ideal situation. Those numbers can cover a big range... I can look at a tree, know that it will cost me $800 to do for labour and chipping (not including my time), decide that if I was hungry I'd do it for $1200 but I'd really like to make $1600. I know that Joe's fancy tree's would charge $2100 for it, and a lebanese crew up the road would do it for $800. Now it's time to start reading the customer ;-) The service that people choose depends more on their values and concerns than how much money they have a lot of the time.

You sound like you're just starting off, and dont have a lot of gear or experience. Your target market is folks who would like to save a few $. You can't compete against well established companies with lots of gear and good crews. Not on service at least anyway. You can probably target 'cut and leave' jobs and still make good money and learn quite a bit. Advertise in local malls and local papers 'Bob's tree service, fair prices, honest work. Discounts for people who keep firewood on property'. Look at it as an apprenticeship and see if you enjoy it. If you stick at it for 6 months to a year and you still like it, start putting some of your money back into gear.

Understanding your costs is the first step. Working out what the going rate is for jobs in your area takes a little more time. Deciding how much profit you deserve is an ongoing process. Learning how to sell to customers is a skill that can take a lifetime to learn.

Shaun
 
You sound like you're just starting off, and dont have a lot of gear or experience. Your target market is folks who would like to save a few $. You can't compete against well established companies with lots of gear and good crews. Not on service at least anyway.
Shaun

That isn't true at all. I am in pretty close to the OP as far as our businesses and where we are at this time.

1) size and amount of equipment doesn't always mean better service.

2) I have worked for customers in multi-million $$$$$ houses down to a small cape of a single parent household.

3) So you can absolutely compete against the big guys.
 
I've gotten several jobs because I have been able to respond quicker than some larger companies. I only have a smaller truckamd a rented chipper, but I can still compete with larger operations.
 
That isn't true at all. I am in pretty close to the OP as far as our businesses and where we are at this time.

1) size and amount of equipment doesn't always mean better service.

2) I have worked for customers in multi-million $$$$$ houses down to a small cape of a single parent household.

3) So you can absolutely compete against the big guys.

That post, as well as all of my other posts in this thread, was directed at the OP.

We may have got some crossed wires with our definition of 'service'. I wasn't meaning service so much in the sense of serving people well, but more in terms of 'services you can offer' and how you can price those services. A company who has a large chip truck, skidders, bucket trucks, large chipper with grapple, and maybe even a small crane can obviously offer those services to customers while a guy with a pickup and a couple saws can not. Yeah, anybody can hire that equipment, but if you don't own it then the hire cost will be large and you are less likely to be familiar with operating all those pieces of equipment and have trained competent staff who can also operate that equipment.

The post was more directed at what type of services you should offer, and what sort of market you should target to make the most profit for your business at whatever stage of development you are at. If you have lots of staff, and heavy plant, then you should absolutely be targeting different work from the work you would target and services you would offer if you are a sole trader who hires a 6" chipper and gets your cousin to work for you from time to time.

This is meant as no disrespect to sole traders or smaller businesses. It's honest advice, and if you read through the post, and my previous posts, there's good advice there about what services you can offer and make good profit on, rather than trying to compete in areas of the market where you're probably just busting your gut while chasing your tail.

2) Good for you.

3) Absolutely, in the same way that an infant can compete against mike tyson.

Shaun
 
I use a basic quote sheet. It has all the clients details, date I first went there, the species of tree, DBH, height, spread and my best guess of how many cubic metres it would be mulched. That lets me work out how big of a truck/chipper I need, and how much ripping of barrels I'll need to do.

The next section has check boxes for what the tree is over. Straight fell or climbed, and what hazards exist - sheds, over a house, tile/fibro/slate roof (easier to crack), fences, footpaths, power lines, pavers/concrete under the tree, and if I have a limited drop zone (ie. do I need to rope down the spar in chunks). That lets me figure how long it will take me to climb and how much risk there is.

Last section is the access. Number of paces to the street, narrowest point I have to pass through, whether it's on an incline or not, whether there are things that will need protecting or could get scratched (air conditioners, water heaters, fresh paint, sandstone pavers etc). That lets me figure how many crew I'll need.

There are lots of ways to calculate things, some guys add a percentage on each item. For myself I factor each line item in at cost and that add my profit on at the end. Heavy plant like chippers and stump grinders are the only gear that get a profit margin factored in because I view my heavy plant as all being individual businesses. They have to stand or fall on their own, I dont want to be carrying them. So I add up my chipping hours at cost, multiply the number of crew I need by what I'm paying them, then add in about $100/hour for myself on the job. That $100 covers most of my overhead (insurance, workers comp, saws, gear etc). More difficult/technical/risky jobs get charged higher, as much as $200/hour sometimes.

It sounds complicated but it only takes a couple minutes because each section is mostly check boxes. The boxes give me reminders about things I would otherwise miss maybe. I have a black folder for 'current' quotes, a green folder for 'won and done' and a red folder for 'lost'. Quote stay in the black folder until they move to the red or green one, I make a follow up call about a week later, then depending on the answer (we need a permit, still getting a couple quotes, have to ask my husband etc) make a note on when to call back. If they say they decided to wait a couple months then I make a note to call them back at a specific date and it stays in the black folder.

On the back of the won jobs I make a few notes about how the job went, any unexpected costs, if i would charge more or less next time. I also make a note of any work that customer might need in future and notes on what I would say if I call them again. Twice a year I go through the book and give them a call. It gets me a lot of work and a lot of referral work.

It's great to be able to call a customer up and say 'hi Mrs Jones, this is Shaun calling. Just wanted to checkup and see how your Jacaranda is after we pruned those 3 branches coming out over your roof last July. Its gone well for you? Thats great news. Did you remember to fertilise the hedge we pruned? And did it spring back well after fertilising? If you need it pruned again please give me a call, as a repeat customer you get a 10% discount on your next prune'. I send my 'won' customers a text message at christmas. It doesnt cost much. I find most people dont want christmas cards any more.

On the back of the lost jobs I make a note of why I lost the job. Most customers are happy to tell you if your price was too high and by how much. I make a note of that. Sometimes you lose them because they cant get the permit, or for other reasons. Sometimes they didnt have the money and were just checking out the price. In winter you might want to give those customers a call if you're short of work and offer them a better price. I always make a note of each date I call again so I dont call and annoy the crap out of them. I only generally call back once to a lost job. Any more than that would be harassment.

That 'database' ends up being a valuable tool. You can see your hit/miss rate, which jobs you make and lose on, and some reasonably useful data on the trees to sharpen up your future estimating skills. You dont need to get fancy with computers, just a photocopied piece of paper is fine. Looking back, my removals average out to about $100/m3 chip removed. That number jumps up to about $120 for trickier trees, bad access and small trees. it goes down as low as $70 for good access straight fell and chip, Large easy tree and bigger contracts. I also know that I make more profit on medium jobs than on big ones, so I dont chase big jobs much any more. Guys compete too hard for them because the numbers are big. Big for me starts at about 40m3 trees and goes up from there. I make the most money on medium trees meaning 20m3. They are usually easy on gear and me, straightforward and dont have much risk or need a lot of crew. I can fit them in one truck easily. That $100/m3 magic number plus a quick look at all the ticked boxes lets me know very fast whether I'm in the right territory.

Shaun

Great read Shaun. What are the chances you can share your form or spreadsheet in order to help educate some of us on the details we have probably missed?
 
I don't know who said this but it has been a great philosophy for me. Bid where you get 1/2 of your bids. If you get more than 1/2 raise your prices. If you get less than 1/2 improve your salesmanship. In the summer I bid to get about 1/4 of bids.

Prices on jobs and cost of jobs are 2 separate thing. The free market sets the price. Figure out your cost of doing business and make money when the market allows you to.
 
I was working on this for the homeowner's perspective, and it is not complete, but here it goes...


How much does tree work cost?

People have this question often... for a variety of reasons. An internet search may turn up questionable numbers. I wish there was an easy answer: pruning costs this much, removals cost this much. I will try not to overcomplicate what goes into an estimate for tree work.

It boils down to time, equipment, and risk: a tree in the middle of a field can be removed quickly with little chance of injury or property damage, whereas the same tree over a house can take much longer and obviously the risk of property damage increases. Move that tree into an inaccessible location or saddle it with a structural defect, and the price keeps going up. I have removed $25 trees and $25,000 trees. I realize that helps very little as you are trying to decide if $2,500 is a good deal or bad deal.

Whether you are getting multiple estimates or just comparing one quote to the endless internet opinions, you should be talking apples to apples... or at least pears.

Insurance
Insurance costs money, but an estimate from someone without it should not even be considered. General Liability covers property in the event something goes wrong. Workers compensation covers injuries to workers. Without appropriate insurance, the property owner carries unnecessary risk that is rarely covered by homeowners or other policies. At best, the time and attorney fees are very costly. It is much easier to get a certificate from the agent with coverage types and limits.

Equipment
Professional climbing gear and chainsaws add up quickly. Bucket trucks and aerial lifts are expensive to purchase and maintain. Large equipment is needed to pick up heavy wood. Big trucks are needed to carry the weight. CDL's are required to drive the big trucks. DOT gets involved with commercial drivers licenses and interstate/intrastate commerce. Cranes are sometimes needed and vary greatly in cost.

Travel Distance
Paying a crew to drive to and from your location adds up. We have less expense in working for our neighbors than someone an hour away. Multiply two hours' pay by the number of people on the crew, now add in all of the associated costs, then add fuel and extra wear on trucks and trailers. You may still be better off paying extra to get the service you desire to travel.

Hauling
There seems to be a myth perpetuated that wood from tree work has great value. Some of it gets used for firewood, some gets chipped for fueling burners, and some logs can be milled; but it all has to be hauled away. A large percentage of tree debris must be hauled to a landfill, where tipping fees are calculated by either weight or volume.

Acceptable Damage
Various types of removals using different equipment and techniques can result anywhere from zero property damage ranging to significant. If your yard is mostly weeds and bare soil, this may not be a concern. On the other hand, if you value your lawn, your landscape, your trees, your driveway, or anything else, you should be certain your bid includes protection of those items. You should also expect the price to be higher for the extra time, equipment, and risk involved. Some tree people do not have the ability to access or rope out tough trees, so they proceed dangerously and/or cause lots of consequential damage along the way.

Licensing
Your contractor should at minimum have a business license, which is easily obtained by paying a small fee. If you require professional services such as pesticide application, planting, design, or supplemental support systems, there are licensing requirements for those that require testing.

Arborist Certification
For a tree being removed, the main issue would be damage to surrounding trees through wounding or even compaction. For pruning, you want a Certified Arborist working on your tree(s). Certified Arborists know that trees do not heal, they seal; even one poor cut can be detrimental. Certification takes time and money for the original testing, and additionally for continuing education requirements.

Additional Qualifications
There are many other qualifications and certifications that professionals will seek out. Often the business owner carries the credentials, but employees can and should obtain them as well.

Training
Even arborists may lack the appropriate level of training for your required task. Experience, training, and continuing education go hand in hand to ensure your tree workers provide the best possible care for your trees. Classes and training takes time and added expense. Expect to pay a little more for a professional crew, but expect better results in safety, production, quality, etc...

Safety
There should be no compromise. There are ANSI standards that plainly spell out required safety training and gear. Wouldn't you feel better knowing the crew on your property was less likely to be injured? Doesn't it make you feel better knowing that workers have the ability to rescue one another and administer first aid? If hardhats and chainsaw protective clothing are not being used, that should be a huge red flag.

Professionalism
All of those clean trucks and uniforms are expensive. So are background checks, drug tests, taxes, and quality employees that show up and do what they are supposed to. Expect those costs to be passed on to the consumer.

Work Load
If a tree company is slow on work, they will be willing to work for less. This is the simple economic principle of supply and demand. This is common in cooler weather, but not necessarily always. If a tree service is begging for work, that could be a warning sign. Don't be surprised to find a schedule 2 to 3 months out in the spring and summer.

Overtime/Emergency
We like to take time to relax with our families and friends. If we have to put in extra hours, we want to be compensated for it over and above the normal rate. Also, if the crew members are working more than 40 hours, the law requires us to pay them time and a half. And guess what all is based on payroll? Insurance, workers comp.*, payroll taxes, unemployment, benefits, etc... If you require immediate service, don't be surprised to find the bid a little higher.

* Workers compensation rates are based on payroll, however overtime is figured at the same rate as regular time, therefore not increasing the cost by 1.5, but only 1:1.

Labor
In some industries, minimum wage help can handle at least some of the simple tasks, which keeps prices down. In the tree business, there are highly skilled climbers and equipment operators. Even the grounds crew must undergo extensive training and high risk of injury. High pay translates into higher prices.

Employee Benefits
If you want employees to be treated fairly with vacation, holidays, bonuses, appreciation, etc... that cost is shared by all of the income-producing days. Cheaper services often skimp here or illegally pay employees as subcontractors. If a contractor is "saving" in this department, don't expect quality employees on your job site. They will find an employer that cares about them.

Profit
Profit is not a dirty word. That is the why and the how a business goes through the hassles and jumps through the hoops. No one likes to be taken advantage of, but expect the price to include a reasonable profit so that new equipment can be purchased and the owner can buy groceries.

Size and accessibility
This should be obvious, but larger trees take more resources. Trees in areas difficult to access take longer. Dead and diseased trees are more difficult to work with. I cannot quote your tree over the phone. Price is largely based on the time your job will take to complete.

Clean-up
Removing the debris is one thing, but levels of service vary with the efforts to rake, blow, pressure wash, or whatever is necessary to finish the job and please the customer.

Some Actual Numbers
Most tree services will have a minimum to schedule your job and mobilize the crew. Your simplest crew would be two men: one tree worker/climber and a helper. Hourly rate would not likely be less than $100 per hour, and that does not factor in equipment and hauling. A full day with a two-man crew could easily get into the $1,000 range. Add more qualified help and equipment, and that can easily double, triple, quadruple... If your job is in the peak of the busy season, and it requires a large crane, and it is an emergency, recognize that price can climb rather quickly. Remember that $25,000 tree? We also had $8,000 in crane rental on that job.
 
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