Getting into the business

[DFW Landscaper]

Hope you guys can give me some advice. I've been in lawn maintenance for two years now. This year, I invested in a little 2.5" chipper/shredder, a small chain saw and a pole saw. Anyway, I'm now seeing how many doors this is opening for me that were closed before. It's a simple law of supply and demand. Most of the lawn care companies don't have any equipment to prune or remove small trees. I'm able to find work much easier and charge better prices than I could for other types of maintenance. It's been a really easy sale for me. Just about everytime I ask a customer if they'd like to thin out a tree, they almost always say yes.

I just stumbled onto arboristsite today and a lot of the terminology is greek to me. Several questions about the business:

1.) Do you find that you're able to gross a whole lot more per man hour doing tree work than a guy with a mowing operation could gross? (Makes sense to me that there would be a lot better money in trees just because of the two barriers to entry...cost of equipment and knowledge requirements.)

2.) If a guy wanted to get into the business with no experience, how would you recommend one go about learning the business? Are there any trade pubilcations or books on the subject? Or do you think a guy would be nuts to enter the business without some hands on experience?

3.) What kind of cash would you recommend a guy have to invest in equipment in order to be ready for the large trees?

Thanks,
DFW Area Landscaper

 

[Nathan Wreyford]

From Austin myself...

I would recommend learning all you can.

the ISA is a good source. Use the search feature here for books, etc.

Another question to ask is why are you thinning trees? Do they have extra leaves? Ask why you are removing a limb when you do it. That is part of the learning thing. Try to become an ISA certified arborist in the future.

Learning from others is a good start. In your area, try to get a hold of Andrew Galahger (sp?) or Tim Trentadue really nice people who run their own tree services.

Good luck.

 

[Stumper]

DFW, Yes you SHOULD be able to gross more per manhour for tree work than lawn care. In fact you have to gross more if you are going to make $$ because of the greater cost of doing tree work and the differing nature of the businesses.

There are books and trade publications that will help you.Try Arboriculture by Harris, anything by Dr, Alex Shigo (there are several good titles), The Tree Climber's Companion by Jeff Jepson, Fundamentals Of General Tree work, By Gerry Beranek and subscribe to Tree Care Industry Magazine. Learn the biology and how to treat trees right then work on small trees until you can get some experienceworking with a pro on bigger ones.

You could easily dump $200,000 into equipment for large trees but it can also be done with a pickup truck and a few hundred dollars worth of gear-IF you know how. The biggest obstacle to working on large trees is lack of knowledge and experience.
Stick around here and you could become a GREAT tree man.:angel:

 

[jimmyq]

Learn first, prune later - at least the basics, for the trees sake. Take an ISA exam prep course, check out the books talked about on this site, ask questions when you can and listen to the great advice you can get here.

There is good money to be made in professional tree care but none of us has respect for cheap, untrained, shoddy work.

Please don't be a low baller, hacker, slasher and topper.

If you stick around here you will see that most of us love doing what we do and take great pride in doing it right and making a living at the same time.

Welcome,

Paul

 

[jimmyq]

As for equipment and making a living at this work...

I started my own thing last fall, probably about $1500 in gear and my truck. My wish list is thousands of dollars long but my needs list is fairly short. The gear you will buy is the gear you need to do what you decide to do. First thing IMHO : Felco hand pruners, second pocket magnifying glass (15-20 power), third SILKY!, fourth two books put out by Cornell U - Insects of trees and shrubs, Diseases of trees and shrubs, fifth a good pruning book. After that the rest is all dependant on what you need day by day.

 

[murphy4trees]

Removals are one thing... no matter who does it... the end product is pretty much the same...

Now pruning is something else altogether...
it can be grossly simplified into two steps...

1) learning how to make proper cuts
and
2) learning what cuts are proper to make...

The more accurate the science gets in this industry the less living material is recommended to be removed in pruning...

PRUNING IS WOUNDING

You don't prune a tree to make it healthier ( except to correct very specific structural problems) You prune a tree to serve a human need (ie for clearance from a roof or driveway, light penetration, removing unsightly deadwood etc..) And when pruning, the idea is to get the human need met doing as little damage as possible to the tree...

More later if you like and

Yes... a good tree man will usually make significantly more than a good lawn mower type...

I was talking to a customer today saying "if only I knew what I know now, when I was 25... Or if I had that kind of energy now...

You asked good questions... sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders

 

[NeTree]

Stick around, learn. Many willing teachers here. Keep an open mind.

You'll need thick skin for some of us, but that's pros for ya.

You're gonna hate that chipper REAL soon. Trust me. Those are useless even for landscapers shredding clippings.

Try not to be just another tree guy- be an ARBORIST.

You'll find this site draws the elite- the hacks don't last long here, and that's just fine with me.

Fine pruning is half science, half art. The good ones know how to blend the two.

There are MOUNTAINS of publications.

What is your goal? Do you intend to stick with mostly pruning to complement your LCO or are you looking to get into full-time tree work?

Knowing where you want to be will help us guide your path.

Welcome to the site.

 

[TimberMcPherson]

I seriously think you need to do at least 3 months with an arborist, what we do safely and well cant be learned from books or reading on a website although they can be a good source.
I come across lawn guys all the time on my jobs that are just doing what they think is right when they are just ruining trees and puting themselves and there clients property in alot of danger.

You could get to know a climber for a local Co, get some tree jobs and pay the guy to help you/teach you how to do them on the weekends. Best to learn from the pros, it will save you a fortune in the long run.
As for starting gear IMO you need

Knowledge and experience.

Insurance

Chaps, harness, rope, panic line, Muffs and helmet, steel capped boots to start with.

Then Handsaw, secateurs, a mid range chainsaw and a climbing saw and chainsaw lanyard (which you need to learn how to use properly, because up in the tree the game is quite different) and a pole pruner.

And then you get into the real climbing gear. I started my business 2 years ago after working for other companies, I spend about a grand and a half a month on equipment at least. My start up gear wise was about 15 grand including an old truck and a trailer and second hand saws. If I had $300,00 right now I could spend it in a day in gear.

If your in a situation when your guessing, your in more trouble than you could possibly know. Just understand that in arborist work you dont get to walk away from to many wrong guesses.

 

[ROLLACOSTA]

im with Tim Mcpherson,you need training without a doubt,

take it from us guys on here theres a lot more to tree work [arboriculture] than meets the eye, buying some equipmant will not make you an arborist training in tree bioligy even just reading from books is very very important.. along with climbing skills and how to use a chainsaw correctly are very important.unfortunatly along with any trade there are lots of hacks carrying out so called tree work..dont become one of these


dont invest a lot of $$ on equipment untill your sure this proffesion is for you..a lot of people find out they dont like the hard work or working in all weathers ..or they dont like working at heights..be sure this is the job for you before you start buying ,the amount of $$$ that can be invested in this job is unbelievable..big chippers and stump grinders with trucks and all the necessary climbing /rigging gear cost a lot

your small chippers is also 1 bad move way too small for tree work ..as i and others on here have said to other people in your position GET TO WORK WITH GOOD CREW for a year or so

another thing if your after BIG money get a job in a bank or something..you can earn good money in this proffesion..but there are a lot of other less dangerous jobs that pay a whole lot more..the job of an arborist is more a labour of love

anyway with all that said dont let me put you off go get training and join us ARBORISTS..p.s you made a good move joining this forum..dont be shy about asking questions..and dont be put off by some guys on here who shall we say go straight to the point

 

[arboromega]

im in line for the trainning suggestion also. can you go part time with a tree company to learn some things?
especially large tree removal if that is what you want to do?
i used to do landscaping back in the day and arboriculture is an entirely different animal...just keep it safe before everything else.

 

[JohnVander]

Dwf,
Tree work is an art, and a science; with a heaping serving of hard labor to boot. Just learning how to properly sharpen a chainsaw (and not dull it, ask RBtree about his 346 I dulled) takes a bit of practice. Learning how to work safely, communicate with others, and have a job flow effeciently when chainsaws are blaring is a whole other deal.
Try to find a climber you can do ground work for on Saturdays, share a job with him when you get a chance you will learn by watching, and get a chance to be critiqued while you are working, (I learned about some bad habits I have yesterday while working with a couple pros).
On a personal note working (working = not being able to hold on to the tree with you hands most of the time, having a chainsaw blazing away 16" from your chest, and generally performing tasks with a very low threshold for error that can result in death and or serious maiming) above 35' is a whole diffent animal, it is scary for most people unaccustomed to heights (me very much included). Finally these trees have not been tested by underwriters labratory, if you are removing it chances are it's got flaws or is dead, you need to know how to identify hazards and work around them SAFELY. I am personally just learning to do that myself and I have been doing the self taught tree remover thing for about a year. I hope that helps a bit.

John

 

[Tree Machine]

Fast track

Move to Indianapolis for a month. I'll get ya dialled in.

 

[Dadatwins]

Welcome DFW to site, you will learn much here if you keep an open mind and have a thick skin. There is probably more money in the tree biz than landscape but also equipment and insurance investment is significantly larger. More liability involved also removing trees around houses and structures. If serious about biz get some training with a reputable company in your area. Read some books about arbiculture. Tree biz can also call for a significant investment in manpower. Search around site for groundman threads and see what a thrill that can be. There are climbers that are free-lance guns for hire but they need to be pretty good at what they do before trying that route. If you are good at sales and feel confident about getting a good price for the job hire a local gun and watch and learn. Make sure whoever you hire knows his stuff first and comes with some recomendations. Also check yourself as to why you are getting all the thinning jobs. Are they necessary? Maybe no one else is doing it for a reason. Do not make mistake of just doing whatever the customer ask you will be quickly classified as 'HACK' I would definitly get my feet wet with some training and experience before making any kind of big cash investment. Good luck.

 

[maligwa]

at least you are asking the questions!!

Good on ya DFW for asking questions instead of just rushing right into the wide world of tree care!

I have been a member of this forum for a few weeks now and I have to say that this is the place to be!
I have made 3 posts but spent at least 3 hours a day on here reading the topics to familiarise myself with the jargon and the industry as a whole... I may be across the pond but trees are trees!

I have gained nationally accredited certs here in uk for use of chainsaw and for climbing and aerial rescue.... but that still doesn't make me an expert... my dad even wants me to start my own business with his backing, but I have no real meaty experience to allow myself to do so... otherwise I'll make a fool of myself and a mess of the trees!

A good placement with a pro arborist is what we need... and to absorb as much knowledge and wisdom that we possibly can!

All the best for the future!

 

[Tree Machine]

Good to have you guys

And a great big welcome to you, also, Maligwa. As you've learned, we're a self-policing bunch who welcome newbies. We're all in this soup for the same reason; to better the tree care profession as a whole and offer you any advice we have to get you working at a professional level and keep you on a safe track.

 

[ScottyStump]

sub it

I am a stumpgrinder, not an arborist. But I am a business man first.

Find a good Arborist to team up with. Sub him anything you can't handle in exchange for an education.

You can make a few bucks by marking up his fee and you will get the on the job training that you will need.

Also, (selfishly) find a good stumpgrinder to sub to as well. You will be asked to offer this service quite often and if you can't do it someone else will get the job. People like a turn-key job.

Good luck!!

-Scott

 

[arboromega]

hey john, i like you definition of working. that was pretty good.

 

[JohnVander]

Thanks,
I'm getting ready to do some "tree-work" right now. I sure wish I didn't have this bug though, to bad for me, the chipper clock is ticking!

John

 

[ROLLACOSTA]

i hope you will enjoy the work