Heat Pump Water Heaters - GE GeoSpring

[Marshy]

I did some searching around and noticed only one other post about Heat Pump Water Heaters (HPWH).

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/heat-pump-water-heater.244836/

I decided to start my own thread specifically for the GE GeoSpring HPWH that I just purchased. I will try to pass on my learnings and answer any question I can about it. This may get a little lengthy...

Currently, the heating system in my house is baseboard heat provided by an oil boiler (Utica Boiler 117,000 BTU/hr). My house is about 1800 sq-ft living space ranch with full basement (not counted in sqft) and attached 2 car garage. There are 5 heating zones currenttly, the indirect domestic hot water heater, basement, garage, one zone for living/dining/kitchen/half bath and another zone for 3 bed rooms and full bath/master bath. Primary heat source in winter is my woodstove which is located in the basement under my master bedroom. Heating is accomplished through natural convection and only one box fan blowing heat towards the basement stairwell. Suprisingly this work well and would probably work better if I cared to install some air vents in the floor to allow heat up but Im satisfied for now...

I was contemplating on constructing a closed loop thermal storage system centered around my wood stove as a heat source to provide DHW. I thought with enough stored capacity it might be able to provide heat to my existing heating zones if connected properly.

Well, I reached my last straw this past weekend when I ran out of fuel oil for the second time this winter. The last purchase of fuel oil was 175 gallons at somewhere about $3.75/gal and was gone in 2 months. Prior to that the same thing happened, I couldnt believe I used a 100 gallons in only a few months... then I realized with the cold winter we're having a lot of that heat was waist in the garage heating zone, even thought its kept at 38*F.

I'm just sick of buying fuel oil and using is for DHW and also sending heat out the garage door. I decided with the cost of fuel oil that the GE GeoSping HPWH should be able to retuen its investment in years time or less. It will be installed in the basement right around the corner from the woodstove and be able to draw nice dry 80*F ambient air to heat my water.

Here's what I've learned about the GeoSpring HPWH through the research I've done so far...

The current production GeoSpring is the second generation and has model # GEH50DEEDS(R or C; color is red or charcoal) and is made in the USA! The first generation model is GEH50DNSRSA and was made in China and had major issues with leaking refridgerent. If you search for geospring in Google you will likely find a LOT of bad reviews about all the evaporator problems... I called GE and spoke with them and they admitted they had major issues with the first generation but the second generation has been corrected. The issue they had was due to galvanic corrosion of the copper evap coil. That has been resolved by using a tin coating on the copper lines. There were other issues but this was the major one that caused a lot of p*ssed off customers to slam GE. I was impressed with the knowledge of the rep that I spoke with, he actuall could speak intellengently about heat pump cycle and all of its components and past issues and their fixes. The eingineer in me had to ask what their problems were and how they fixed it. I was starting to think I made a bad invetment after reading the reviews...

Anycase, if you've managed to read all of this so far that is equally impressive in itself... I happened to come across a laboratiry assessment of the GeoSpring HPWH condicted by Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance (NEEA) which was contracted with Ecotope Inc and Cascade Eningeering Services Inc. I have yet to read past the introduction but it looks interesting and sounds like the product is promising. That report can be found here...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...H-7oB4&usg=AFQjCNFxbJQ5jyK_oTfs5GUUVyuDfBbZZg

 

[stihly dan]

I read that post, only negative on it was in hybrid they are missing an opportunity to run the heat pump. The results they show are less than what I have found. I have had mine for 1 1/2 yrs. Fam of 5, 3 teenagers and the wife is a bath monger. I run it hp only during heating season and summer. Spring and fall it's on hybrid. We don't have hot H20 issues unless the teens are sick. ( apparently a bath or shower makes you feel better) Take a xxxxx advil damit. Saves a ton of cash over oil.

 

[Marshy]

I read that post, only negative on it was in hybrid they are missing an opportunity to run the heat pump. The results they show are less than what I have found. I have had mine for 1 1/2 yrs. Fam of 5, 3 teenagers and the wife is a bath monger. I run it hp only during heating season and summer. Spring and fall it's on hybrid. We don't have hot H20 issues unless the teens are sick. ( apparently a bath or shower makes you feel better) Take a xxxxx advil damit. Saves a ton of cash over oil.

Dan, can you confirm wich model you have?
Also, can you provide some pictures of your tempering tank or setup as a whole?

I will be removing my indirect hot water tank from my DW and now have the opportunity to use that as a preheat or thermal storage. Thanks!

 

[Joe Whalen]

I was just reading about them today. My power provider is offering a $300 rebate, but it still ends up costing 3x as much as an electric. I'm using a 5100i insert on the first floor so my basement is pretty cold, which worries me for the heat pump. I have a summer winter hookup now and the wife and 4 kids love very hot showers. What is the max water temp on the one you got. One i looked at was only 120*, i didn't see it listed on the 80 gallons I checked out though. 425#, my back hurts thinking about getting that in a basement.

 

[stihly dan]

Yes I have the new one. The filter is on top. the older model has the filter on the side.

 

[stihly dan]

I was just reading about them today. My power provider is offering a $300 rebate, but it still ends up costing 3x as much as an electric. I'm using a 5100i insert on the first floor so my basement is pretty cold, which worries me for the heat pump. I have a summer winter hookup now and the wife and 4 kids love very hot showers. What is the max water temp on the one you got. One i looked at was only 120*, i didn't see it listed on the 80 gallons I checked out though. 425#, my back hurts thinking about getting that in a basement.

50 gal goes up to 140*

 

[johnnylabguy]

My Dad has one and likes it. I seriously considered one a few years back but the startup cost was prohibitive without the gov rebate he got for his, and I worried about more parts to break. I was partially right. His compressor went bad in less than a year. Now all the parts and labor were covered but what happens next time I wonder. One other note is that his basement is downright cold in the winter time now! Unlike your situation Marshy, his wood insert is upstairs. I still like the idea as I love my heatpump in the shoulder seasons, but Dad bought one of the first year models and I hope they have the bugs worked out now.

 

[stihly dan]

There are other brands that you can exhaust the cold outside.

 

[firebrick43]

I have the first gen model since December 2010. I got both a government rebate(think 200 dollars) and the 300 dollar utility rebate. Paid 1150. I took about 30-35 dollars a month off my utility bill and even more in the hot summer months. The only issue I have had is the condensate drain plugging and the overflow tube drips into the catch pan instead of the drain. Run it on heat pump mode only. Wife, baby and I(long hot showers is one on my vices).

Great investment, paid itself off in a little under 2 years and is now saving me 360 dollars a year.

 

[Marshy]

I read that post, only negative on it was in hybrid they are missing an opportunity to run the heat pump. The results they show are less than what I have found. …

I wish GE would reconsider their controls and allow the HP to run all the time (when demanded) while in hybrid mode regardless of whether the resistive elements are on or not. As stated by the white paper, this will only result in quicker recovery and added efficiency. Seems silly they wouldn’t take advantage of that heat source…

I was just reading about them today. My power provider is offering a $300 rebate, but it still ends up costing 3x as much as an electric. I'm using a 5100i insert on the first floor so my basement is pretty cold, which worries me for the heat pump. I have a summer winter hookup now and the wife and 4 kids love very hot showers. What is the max water temp on the one you got. One i looked at was only 120*, i didn't see it listed on the 80 gallons I checked out though. 425#, my back hurts thinking about getting that in a basement.

I haven’t check with my utility to see if they also have a rebate; a $300 federal rebate is still being offered though. I bought the unit online for something like $1k shipped to my house, with the $300 Fed credit and possibly another $300 from my utility, that would make it hard to pass up for me considering 100 gals of oil cost me $400 right now and would only last maybe 2 months or so…

Regarding the ambient temperature, if you read the assessment (bottom link in my first post) you will find that they tested the heater with surrounding ambient air and inlet water temperature at 50*F to evaluate its effectiveness in cooler climate condition (i.e. North West climate specification). The ratings GE claims are based on a standard industry testing for all HPWH for comparison purposes and is conducted at 67*F air and 58*F water temps. The conclusion was even at Northern Climate Specification (50*F water/air temp) this unit will still provides an energy factor of 1.92 vs the 2.4 energy factor at standard conditions and will continue to offer savings just at a reduced efficiency.

With that said, you have to read the report and be able to draw a conclusion based on your household demands and your draw pattern. Due to the control scheme of the unit, the heat pump does not provide recovery heat to the tank when the resistive elements turn on to meet high demands and this hurts efficiency. The analysis determined the unit is capable of providing about 2.5 - 16 gallon showers, 8 minutes long at 2 gpm with a 5 minute wait between each (more like 2.25 showers IMO based on figure 11). The number of useful shower is based on a tank setpoint of 120*F and half way into your third shower the tank water coming out is 108*F. The efficient shower test is probably the most useful measure of the water heater and it quantifies how much water you can expect to draw before the unit comes out of the heat pump mode. The number of shower cycles is determined when the resistive elements come on the outlet water temp reaches 108*F, whichever comes first (105*F is considered minimum useful hot water temp)… As long as your family didnt take more than 2 (10 minute) showers within an hour you should be able to keep the unit in Heat pump mode and make a savings... Even if you couldnt, thats 2 showers in high efficiency mode that your going to save on every day, let alone the non-routine loads like laundry and dish washer...

BTW, the measured tank volume was 45.1 gal and not the 50 gal advertised which is within the industry "acceptable" +/- 10% requirement for DHW heaters. I think the dry weight is more like just under 200 lbs for this unit, and they do not offer a larger tank at this time. From the conclusion of the analysis, a larger capacity heat pump would provide more efficiency to the tank. Combined with a change in control strategy there seems to be a lot of low hanging fruit (efficiency) that is untapped.

Another thing you might be interested in knowing, the GE rep said the exhaust on this unit is approximately equivalent to a 400- Btu/hr air conditioner. If placed in a large area it should not make a noticeable difference in ambient temperature. I wish the analysis quantified the cold load rejected in BTU/hr, but otherwise a good document.

My Dad has one and likes it. I seriously considered one a few years back but the startup cost was prohibitive without the gov rebate he got for his, and I worried about more parts to break. I was partially right. His compressor went bad in less than a year. Now all the parts and labor were covered but what happens next time I wonder. One other note is that his basement is downright cold in the winter time now! Unlike your situation Marshy, his wood insert is upstairs. I still like the idea as I love my heat pump in the shoulder seasons, but Dad bought one of the first year models and I hope they have the bugs worked out now.

Do you know which model he had, first or second generation? The first gen almost look like an air compressor because of the funny plastic case around the heat pump unit and the overall height of the first gen are about 6 or more feet tall… If he has a chest freezer or spare fridge he uses I would suggest putting it down there to help warm the area. That will increase the efficiency of both the units…

 

[Marshy]

There are other brands that you can exhaust the cold outside.

I dont see that as a positive, do you? Maybe if you had it in an unheated basement and the makeup air is warmer than the basement air...

First win in my book is in summer it provides some cooling and dehumidifying to the area.

I would not want to reject that cool air to the outside in the winter because the makup air to the house will be colder coming in and will increase my heating demand just that much more. I think that applies to any home new or old. Yes, it is possible to have a house that is "too tight". Even though my hosue id ~18 year old, it does not fall into the "too tight" category as I have a drive out basement with a garage door that seeps lots of fresh air into the bsement to replace whats going up my flue from the woodstove...

 

[firebrick43]

One other plus. Every 6 months or so with my previous hot water heater I had to flush out the mineral deposit slurry that forms in the bottom due to the hot elements. I would remove at least a 5 gallon bucket full of nasties. A lot of times I had to stick a coat hanger up the spout to get it unblocked(shut the water off if you ever have to do this, those calcium deposits sprayed all over you doesn't make the wife happy nor feel good under your eye lids.)

With running my new one in Heat pump only mode no more cleaning out slurry. I have flushed it twice now and only water has come out. The heat pumps coils wrap around the tank so it's even and defused instead of a small element that near boiling right next to it causing minerals to precipitate out.

 

[Marshy]

One other plus. Every 6 months or so with my previous hot water heater I had to flush out the mineral deposit slurry that forms in the bottom due to the hot elements. I would remove at least a 5 gallon bucket full of nasties. A lot of times I had to stick a coat hanger up the spout to get it unblocked(shut the water off if you ever have to do this, those calcium deposits sprayed all over you doesn't make the wife happy nor feel good under your eye lids.)

With running my new one in Heat pump only mode no more cleaning out slurry. I have flushed it twice now and only water has come out. The heat pumps coils wrap around the tank so it's even and defused instead of a small element that near boiling right next to it causing minerals to precipitate out.

Awesome to know! GE recommends a yearly flush but Im sure that varries with different water and liek you said, no build up if not using the elements, I like that idea.

 

[firebrick43]

Awesome to know! GE recommends a yearly flush but Im sure that varries with different water and liek you said, no build up if not using the elements, I like that idea.

BTW, I think you accidently disliked my previous post..?

Sorry, some times I hate iPhones and their touch screens.

 

[firebrick43]

Maybe in the dead of winter you wouldn't want to blow the cold heat pump air outside and have it replaced with cold outside air leaking into the house but during spring and fall it may well be better pushing the cold heat pump air outdoors. It depends on the temp of the heat pump exhaust air. How cold is it?

Speaking of dehumidifying, is this DHW heat pump set up to drain or pump off the condensate? Seems it must.

These DHW heat pumps are the wave of the future!

There is a clear vinyl drain tube that runs down to the drain for the pop off valve. The air coming out is quite cool. It makes a noticeable difference in our utility room. The wood stove is about 10 feet away and if the door is open it's not bad. Leave the door closed and it's pretty chilly in there.

Wanted to say the one bad thing I don't like about the unit. The noise. The fan noise is a higher pitch and is sort of annoying but we have gotten use to it. It's not overly loud it's the pitch. The running furnace will cover up the noise. I don't know if the second generation has the same issue or not???? If it was in a basement there would be no problem at all.

 

[Marshy]

Maybe in the dead of winter you wouldn't want to blow the cold heat pump air outside and have it replaced with cold outside air leaking into the house but during spring and fall it may well be better pushing the cold heat pump air outdoors. It depends on the temp of the heat pump exhaust air. How cold is it?

Speaking of dehumidifying, is this DHW heat pump set up to drain or pump off the condensate? Seems it must.

These DHW heat pumps are the wave of the future!

Im not sure what temperature the air comes out but the GE rep said the cool air being rejected is approximately the same as a 4000 BTU/hr window air conditioner, but I have not come across any official information on that...

I suppose in spring and fall anytime you could get warm air to the HPWH without having to heat the entire surounding air it would help efficiency. Since the HPWH fan isnt really designed to be used in a ducted system (i.e. pushing/drawing air 20-40 feet through a duct to outside the house) it might make more sense to bring outside ambient air directly to the unit with a small axial fan in a round duct (thinking kind of like your bathroom vent but in reverse) and just let the cold air from the HP continue to discharge into the room. The warm air supply could discharge right above the filter/inlet of the HP and any air that doesnt get cycled into the HP would counteract the cooling from the HP. Also it might be an added benefit to bringing in warm air like that as your house might go slightly positive presure. I know positive presure in the winter makes for better living conditions than negative pressure and feeling drafts.

Maybe stihly Dan can put a thermometer next to his and let us know what the air temperature being discharged is...? I saw a youtube video of a guy that recording his room temperature while the HP ran and the room temp didnt even drop an entire degree (C)...

Condensate drains via gravity out the side of the unit and you have to have either a condensate/sump pump of a floor drain available. If that main line get clogged then the unit has a little spill tube that will dribble watter on the floor next to the unit to let you know you have blockage. Amount of condensat will vary depending on relative humidity. THe rep said a quart a day but could not tell me at what relative humidity. It might be as much as a gallon a day depending where in the country you live and where the unit is place.

 

[Marshy]

There is a clear vinyl drain tube that runs down to the drain for the pop off valve. The air coming out is quite cool. It makes a noticeable difference in our utility room. The wood stove is about 10 feet away and if the door is open it's not bad. Leave the door closed and it's pretty chilly in there.

Wanted to say the one bad thing I don't like about the unit. The noise. The fan noise is a higher pitch and is sort of annoying but we have gotten use to it. It's not overly loud it's the pitch. The running furnace will cover up the noise. I don't know if the second generation has the same issue or not???? If it was in a basement there would be no problem at all.

The recommended room size is 700 sq-ft. It can be placed in smaller areas but will require door vents to allow circulation and replenish the heat being lost. The new units have the same dbl rating as the old ones except your version has a variable speed fan and the new generation is one single speed. The pitch might have changed because they switched to a single metal blade, replacing the two plastic blase fan.

 

[Marshy]

BTW,

I believe there is additional useful information in the test they conducted on the first generation GE GeoSping HPWH. There is a active link in the introduction of Analysis (from my first post). Even though it is on the first generation HPWH it compared t other models (one was an 80 gal!) and it evaluated the mose efficient location for the unit. All things considered, the garage was apparently the number one location... I have not read it yet but it might give more ideas to folks who dont like the idea of placing it in the house...

 

[StihlFroling]

I just recently installed my third Geo water heater. This was a 50 gallon. Its a great idea but compared to the 40 gal gas it replaced, it doesn't keep up with a family of four. It just takes too long to recover between showers. Only during low usage times does it ever use just the pump. It's mostly going full bore trying to keep up during the morning showers. None of them have been even close to the first hour ratings. I think these are a great idea, just need more volume. Climate, environment conditions effect performance & recovery & mode of operation and at four or five times the cost of a standard electric water heater ( not including install cost) it will take decades to see any ROI. I think the second generation is better than the first, as they had a lot of problems with early units and the controller. The repairs aren't cheap either, if you can find a GE qualified tech. A 50 struggles to provide 2 8-10 minute showers within an hour, so they've had to spread out usage. The kids (girls) really don't like this. I'm scheduled to change out one of the three next week. Going with a Bradford white eF series high efficiency low NoX heater. Its just like having a window shaker AC unit in your house, good for summer but its a lot to reheat. That cost isn't anywhere in the calculations or expense of ownership. Its enuff to make the mechanical room pretty cool to cold. When the furnace turns on it takes a few before it stops blowing cold air. Good for summer tho. Overall I think they have their place in the market where no fuel is available. And or where usage is low. I would own one myself if electric was my only source.

 

[firebrick43]

The fact that it cools on the winter does not bother me as I am using wood heat to restore that heat. Remember one thing about gas water heaters, the flue! The design of a WH flue allows warm air from the house to continuously go up the flue even if it's not heating.

If you are using gas to heat your house with a high efficiency furnace it has plastic flue and out side air intake so it doesn't allow heat to escape. So even if you are converting gas into air heat and then using the HPWH to convert it into warm water it's still overall more efficient as warm air is not constantly going up the flue with a tankless or a tank type gas water heater.

We have not had an issue running out as wife showers in the morning but I shower at midnight coming home from a 2shift machine shop smelling of cutting fluid.

As my boy is 10 months old and we are trying for a second one I am thinking of installing a drain back solar hot water system (1000$ builditsolar.com design) to supplement the HPWH so when I have two teenage boys I won't be taking cold showers. Or I just might implement Navy showers for them!

The gen 1 geospring is 63" tall. Very classy looking, not appliance like at all. Room I have it in is 15x8