Knot in the Hinge

[Slade McCuiston]

I was planning to drop a maple for firewood. I did all my usual preparation and limbed the tree up as high as I could. After that, I cut a Humboldt face cut and completed the back cut (and put a wedge in the center of the back cut). As I pounded the wedge in, the tree started to fall in the direction I wanted. Then it happened. It twisted 90 degrees to the left and fell sideways from the face.

So, I decided to look and see why it fell sideways. There was a big knot in the hinge that, I assume, would be equivalent to leaving a lot more hinge wood on that side.

Anyone have any input on dealing with this? I'm definitely no logger, but this is the first time I've had this happen on a tree of any real size (and I've cut quite a few trees).

 

[woodchuck357]

Did the tree twist toward or away from the side with the knot? I can't remember a knot at stump height that would have been big enough to affect the fall. I have cut some tops out of trees where knots were in the hinge area and don't remember them changing the direction of fall, but I generally use a jump cut when topping trees(some folks call it a box cut).
What was the diameter of the maple? If it was a sapling small things can change the fall.

 

[Slade McCuiston]

The tree twisted 90 degrees towards the side with the knot. The knot made up about 1/8 of the hinge. I wish I had taken a picture of the stump, but I cut it a little lower so we could drive over it. I may go out and take a picture of the piece of the stump I cut off and the butt of the log to show you guys.

 

[lfnh]

that would help. closeup pics of stump + butt would be interesting to read

 

[Slade McCuiston]

I won't be able to take any pictures until tomorrow (if I'm not busy). It gets dark so early this time of year. Seems like I can't get anything done. Seems I missed the diameter question. It was a smaller tree, around 10" or so.

 

[Gavman]

Maples are dangerous, they have so many internal stresses that are not readily apparent unless you are some kind of guru or own a stihl....

 

[haveawoody]

I've had it happen on limbs but never on the main tree, must have had some pretty serious damage as a young tree.
The fun of a limb heading towards you is not that much fun.
A knot can break on one side and hold on pretty well with the other even with gravity tugging away to pull it straight down.
A knot is better than a rot though, running into a knot at your final hinge wood isn't as bad as running into punk.
A knot will go to the spot you got most times and rot will not
Poetry is fun

 

[philoshop]

What if there was rot in the knot? Would the wood knot rot or not?

 

[Slade McCuiston]

Considering the weather outside (oh, about zero and raining, turning to ice), I'll have to take pictures of the stump and butt later.

 

[LouB]

Maples can have a lot of unbalanced weight high up in the tree. If there was a heavy limb up there, it could easily cause the tree to rotate as it started to fall. The last large maple I dropped was like that. Once it was on the ground I could see the size (and weight) of those limbs that were 50+ feet up the tree. Lots of leverage can be produced with heavy limbs up that high.

 

[Chris-PA]

What if there was rot in the knot? Would the wood knot rot or not?

I'm glad I'm not the only one who's bored! (that was pretty good BTW)

 

[northmanlogging]

the knot would have acted like a rotten spot, if you peek into your undercut before committing to the back cut you can usually spot these kinds of things and correct for them. In this case I would have made the notch a block face by taking a little more off the upper side, or leave more on that side while backing it up. If it was a rotten spot about the only thing you can do is leave more on that side and hope for the best.

 

[Slade McCuiston]

Maples can have a lot of unbalanced weight high up in the tree. If there was a heavy limb up there, it could easily cause the tree to rotate as it started to fall. The last large maple I dropped was like that. Once it was on the ground I could see the size (and weight) of those limbs that were 50+ feet up the tree. Lots of leverage can be produced with heavy limbs up that high.

This was a straight, tall tree for it's size and had only very spindly branches (and few at that). I'm assuming the tree was probably broken off at the ground and then re-grew, hiding this knot as it got older. I don't always check my face cut, but I did this time because I wanted to make sure I didn't make a dutchman. I have a tendency to accidentally do that when felling small trees. The area around the knot was very red in color, but I don't recall seeing that until after the fact. The knot was also on the far end of the hinge, almost to the end. I don't guess it would've caused the trouble it did if it were more in the middle.

By the way, nice rhymes.

 

[VW Splitter]

I had a knot in the hinge once. I had 7 small trees in a old fence row I was dropping so I could build a wood shed,12 to 14" dia. The trees had to fall between my house and my detached garage, about a 50' wide hole to hit. the first 6 fell flawless. On the last one, The brush at the top hit the house. Didnt hurt anything, but in trying to figure out what went wrong I found a big not in the hinge.

 

[Slade McCuiston]

You know, I lied to you guys. I said there was no rot, but there was. It still seems solid, though. It's hard to get a good picture today without it being so bright you can't see it, but I tried my best.

The tree twisted and fell sideways this (->) direction.

 

[bitzer]

I've never seen a maple with red staining like that. It looks like a box elder. Same family I guess I just never hear them lumped together around here. Anyway, I think you cut the hinge off on the good side which would cause it to take off that direction. Where the rot is it would have taken off the opposite side otherwise. Is it me or is your back cut really high above your gunning cut?

 

[woodchuck357]

In my experience, the felling cut in line with the apex of the notch gives the best control. Looks like some fibers on the right (my right as I look at the pics) held on longer than the rest and may have contributed to the swing more than the knot.
I haven't had a butt come back over the stump before limbs hit the ground, and cutting high behind will not stop that.

 

[Dalmatian90]

+1 on Box Elder.

 

[Slade McCuiston]

I've never seen a maple with red staining like that. It looks like a box elder. Same family I guess I just never hear them lumped together around here. Anyway, I think you cut the hinge off on the good side which would cause it to take off that direction. Where the rot is it would have taken off the opposite side otherwise. Is it me or is your back cut really high above your gunning cut?

As a farmer, I don't know my trees as well as I should. I didn't cut the hinge off. I set it up and fell it with wedges. It just tore down instead of leaving a hinge. And yes, I did cut the back cut very high (though I do like leaving a bit of stump shot). I try to cut as low to the ground as I can. The side of the face cut was down hill. I then made the back cut above the ground on the up-hill side, resulting in a high back cut. If I took better pictures, it would show that. By the way, thanks guys for informing me that I had my trees mixed up. I'm glad I know that now!

 

[Steve NW WI]

I've never seen a maple with red staining like that. It looks like a box elder. Same family I guess I just never hear them lumped together around here. Anyway, I think you cut the hinge off on the good side which would cause it to take off that direction. Where the rot is it would have taken off the opposite side otherwise. Is it me or is your back cut really high above your gunning cut?

Bitz, I think you're right on all counts. Sure looks like box elder to me (sometimes called Manitoba Maple, although that's just plain mean to the rest of the Maple family), and they're prone to having rot in em, as well as growing knots/burls in strange places. Do yourself a favor, go back to that stump once more with a bottle full of Tordon, and douse the stump well, or there'll be 2 dozen shoots sticking out of it come spring. Nothing worse than a box elder bush.