Meeting a forester/logger tomorrow - what should I ask him?

[Jim Timber]

I've got 84 acres of hardwood 40yr old second generation regrowth. I need a management plan so I can get the 2c tax deduction, but I also want to take my aspen to the ground.

The stand was managed for big tooth and quaking aspen, but also has significant bur and red oak, silver and red maple, basswood, birch, and the rest is elm, sumac, and hop hornbeam (ironwood).

My goal is to open it up and still have areas which remain in their current state. "Park like" would be how I'd describe it, but I'm going for a thicker savanna that I'll have my house in, and then I'll let the forest regrow for most of it.

For the plan, I know I should have everything written out, and diagramed for the forester. But for the walk through bid process - what questions should I be asking?

He's already told me they chip the slash, and take standing and deadfall trees, but leave standing snags. We didn't cover stump removal, but I do want some areas cleaned up and smoothed out. They seed alsike clover on landings and skidder trails at no charge (not saying much - the seed is cheap) - I wonder if that's really just a way to hide the surface? I know it helps prevent erosion.

Lastly, how's the market looking for this winter? While I'd like to get a pole barn built with the proceeds, I don't need to sell.

 

[SliverPicker]

"Park-like" likely won't be the healthiest condition to leave your woods in. The forester will have some great ideas that work well in you area. Post some feedback on your meeting if you don't mind.

 

[slowp]

Coffee? :msp_smile:

 

[redprospector]

May not be something you'll want to ask at your meeting, but I have asked; What tha heck are you thinking?

Andy

 

[madhatte]

Only approach a Forester from directly in front. Hold out both hands to assure your good intentions. Avoid bright colors.

 

[Jim Timber]

My north 40 is rolling hills with 4 draws cutting through the parcel as the land slopes toward the lake. There's 100' of elevation change, but it's pretty lumpy with good slopes and character. My southern 40 is damn near flat, with a 25' elevation change over the 1320' width.

My "park like" area will center over a couple of the draws where my house and out buildings will eventually go.

There's also a couple acres I'll have clear cut on the north border, as that hill top is on a peninsula of high ground - future apple orchard. I already have the perimeter marked.

I clear cut a 1/4 acre this spring to make the wife a garden, and that's coming back strong despite the deer browsing. Since I knew it wouldn't be tillable this year, I didn't treat the stumps.

Lastly, I want a 50ish foot wide shooting range cut N/S along my east border. I've already started cutting lots of the trees over there to make a barricade to keep people out. They can dump tops on it as well - the "shrub henge" as I call it, is a two fold solution to my poaching "line hunting" neighbor problem. It also provides much needed habitat for bunnies and fox. Keeping the deer safe on my side is a bonus. I shoot far less of them than they do (brown is down!).

The east border only has 10' of elevation change for the whole 1/2 mile. I'm going for 800yds usable shooting if I can pull it off. I also figure we can work that strip into the decks and cutting paths pretty easily.

I've been thinking up my layout for over a year. My neighbor is also a forester, but not currently licenced to write plans. I had him out earlier this spring before leaf-out to bounce ideas off of, and his only concern was that I'm on the fringe of bumping into primarily saw logs from bolts, and said I should wait another 5 years. Meanwhile, I want my house done within that 5 years, and we're starting to see top breakage in the aspen from moderate winds. I don't want to risk my profits trying to increase them, so I'm ready to cut.

 

[Jim Timber]

The guy cancelled on me. He forgot about another meeting he had scheduled today.

 

[slowp]

The guy cancelled on me. He forgot about another meeting he had scheduled today.

Foresters are shy creatures. You must have done something to scare him off. Quietly lure him back using coffee and cookies for bait.

Wear camo. Make sure it is correct for your location. Foresters know the vegetation patterns quite well and can detect bad camo from many feet away. Do not make sudden moves or the forester may drive away.

 

[SliverPicker]

I agree. Slow deliberate movements only. One sudden gesture and he'll be outta there!

 

[ShaneLogs]

Don't touch his saw either.

 

[Jim Timber]

We're going to set something up for 10 days from now. I'll have to be at the lake for FIL care taking duties then anyway.

Something occurred to me this morning - since this guy does logging, isn't it a conflict of interest to have him running my timber sale? I want competitive bids. Seems like I'd be buying a house through the sellers agent.

 

[ChrisIsThis]

Something occurred to me this morning - since this guy does logging, isn't it a conflict of interest to have him running my timber sale? I want competitive bids. Seems like I'd be buying a house through the sellers agent.[/QUOTE]

It is possible that he cuts the logs and then sells them "roadside" through a competitive bidding process. You would be paying him (or his crew) a fixed rate to cut/yard the logs. I think this is a more common practice in "the north".

Always keep a Snickers and a Coke handy to calm a spooked forester too.

 

[Gologit]

We're going to set something up for 10 days from now. I'll have to be at the lake for FIL care taking duties then anyway.

Something occurred to me this morning - since this guy does logging, isn't it a conflict of interest to have him running my timber sale? I want competitive bids. Seems like I'd be buying a house through the sellers agent.

I wonder about that too. I don't know if it's a direct conflict of interest but it certainly narrows down your choices. Usually an independent consulting forester has no real financial stake in the operation. He's hired to give you advice and opinions.

I don't know if the logger acting as your forester is really a good idea. I'd think it would be hard for him to be objective when he has a business interest in your operation.

This might be a good time to contact your state forestry department and try to line up an independent forester to give you a second opinion.

Let us know what happens.

 

[Jim Timber]

He called me again thurs, but I haven't gotten back to him. I think I'll take him up on his free quote just to see where he's at money wise, and keep that in mind as I proceed. My neighbor doesn't think my trees are quite there yet (he's looking at max value), but I want to move forward on projects.

Something that unsettled me in our previous dealings was his insistence on driving his atv. I don't drive my land this close to archery opener, I'm not letting him!

 

[redprospector]

Hmm. All this talk about wearing camo and moving slowly to keep from spooking one of these elusive creatures. Now the mention of archery season opening.... No wonder the guy's not showing up.

Andy

 

[hammerlogging]

Hmm. All this talk about wearing camo and moving slowly to keep from spooking one of these elusive creatures. Now the mention of archery season opening.... No wonder the guy's not showing up.

Andy

yup- in the south it seems like every crew takes a week off at thanksgiving for rifle season. cause nobody's gonna show anyhow.

 

[Jim Timber]

Met with him today. Turns out, he's got 6 loggers he subcontracts with, so there's no conflict of interest.

Due to the wind damage this spring, there's a glut of wood on the market, so I'm going to wait to do a sale.

 

[jay_d]

i think you have unrealistic expectations on what a "logging job" really is. be prepared to be sorely disappointed when you do get it cut, b/c landscapers make state parks look like that, loggers get the wood and it makes a mess, then we do just enough to keep the land owner from bad mouthing us.

when a timber dealer buys your wood, he buys your stems, not the stumps, and not the limbs, and not the leaves, and not the vines. make sure you have a diameter size and a length set up in your contract to what has to be picked up
ie all trees measuring 4 inches in butt diameter, and 12 foot in length with a 2 inch crown, must be considered merchantable, and treated as such.


if its not in the contract then he doesnt have to do ANYTHING, if it slips by in the fine print that you authorize a clear cut, then by law he can clear cut your property. etc etc. read the contract and have it amended as you see fit.

finally make him give full disclosure on what the going rates at the mill are vs what your being paid. if you've ever heard of logging on the half, forget all about it, that is a thing of the past.



crown means tree top

 

[Jim Timber]

My expectations are pretty reasonable: I don't expect the place to be manicured turf with fareway quality puttable grass when they're done. I'm stating my goal is to eventually end up with a park like area - it's going to take years!

I didn't think he's on board with my goals, and I'm pretty sure once my management plan is complete we won't be doing more business. He sees 2 tracks wide access paths as low disturbance - I want some areas cut with a chainsaw, so I keep the stems that aren't mature. He wants a fellerbuncher to cut it all and chip the slash.

Actually, right now he'd chip everything and buy it at $20/cord. No effen way!

I think I'm going to buy a tractor, make a grapple and start logging it myself.

 

[slowp]

A two track road (I'm assuming you mean one tire each track) IS low disturbance in the real world. Sounds like he is being honest with you. He has to have room to get equipment in there. And, this may be hard to realize, a feller buncher or processor can get limb locked trees out with less or the same disturbance as a guy with a chainsaw. Even the best faller in the world cannot always get limb locked trees on the ground in a tight spacing. That means a skidder has to come in and finish the job if he can't get another tree to knock the hangup onto the ground.

There are good operators, and there are bad. It sounds like you have too high of expectations to have a logger come in and make money. Remember, everybody has to make a living. If you want to hand fall, and then snake the logs through some tight spaces, that's going to take extra time, and that's going to add costs.

Logs like to travel in straight lines. Otherwise, you better plan on having rub trees. One suggestion I'd make is to work in clumps. Take a small clump of trees out, and leave a clump untouched. You'll still need access to the area by trucks and equipment.

Gawd, this is hard to get across on a computer forum. Maybe you should do it yourself and learn what it takes to get a tree out of the woods. I'm not being snarky, because I went through this phase. I think most people do. If you haven't been around logging much, you can't know what it takes, what type of skid trails are needed, and how much ground disturbance there is.

Are there any horse loggers in your area?

I have a friend who had some bad experiences with logging on the family property. I suggested a logger for her to hire, and suggested she go out and see what he'd done and maybe even watch a while, after getting his OK. She did. She hired him and it worked out very well. Maybe you could do the same?